014 – Systems Thinking in Megaprojects: How to Fix Broken Integration

Orion Matthews: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Major Project podcast. I’m your host, Orion Matthews. In this pod, we are learning from the people who work on projects over a billion, trying to tease out those lessons and learnings from these big endeavors.

And today my guest is Ellie Moha, founder and principal of Tac Hive Consulting, which is a Canadian advisory firm focused on business driven PMOs, project governance and performance improvement for complex capital programs. Ellie brings over 24 years of international experience across transportation, infrastructure, energy, and industrial sectors.

And over the past decade since moving to Canada, she has held organizational leadership positions, in addition to project and program management roles with global engineering firms. Including Hatch, G-H-D-I-B-I global, contributing to some of Canada’s largest transit initiatives, including the eglington, Crosstown, LRT, and [00:01:00] Metrolinks Go expansion program, known as RER Encore, an engineer by training with an MBA and A PMP certification.

Congratulations, Ellie. Most recently serving as global discipline director for project management development at Hatch. She is known for systems thinking, which is the topic of this episode, and integration. And her focus is on aligning project delivery with business outcomes and organizational performance.

Ellie, you are very accomplished. I am very excited to welcome you to the podcast. Welcome. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: Thank you so much, Orion, for having me today. And also I would like to extend my appreciation to your audience, who will give their valuable time to us and then spend some, some, uh, maybe minutes or hour, uh, with us.

And I’m hopefully, actually that we can together share more experiences and lessons learned on major projects. They actually go and objective that you and your team, uh, started and which is very valuable in my opinion, uh, to share the lessons learned and opinions and experiences and learn from each other.

Thank you again, and I’m looking forward for our, conversation. 

Orion Matthews: Well, before we get started, I think what they would love to know is a little bit about your history. Specifically how you got into the major project space. You’ve obviously been very accomplished, so maybe you can give us a little bit of background of what interested you in major projects and how you got started. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: As you mentioned, I am [00:02:00] a chemical engineer. I started to work as chemical engineer a long time ago for a few years in German Iranian company. And, in industrial sector, we were helping actually our clients to improve their efficiency, procedures, consider actually more environmental friendly procedures, how to be more cost effective, how to improve quality, how, how to, improve actually, energy consumption.

But our projects actually were very small and I was a simple engineer focused on, on technical side. But I always was curious actually, okay, how, if we are struggling with delivering small projects in industrial sector, how are they are delivering huge mega projects, thousands miles away, how they are managing actually, big corporates globally.

So that was the reason I started my MBA. And simultaneously I shifted to oil and gas projects, which was [00:03:00] one of the biggest projects at the time in, in my country. And I worked actually for Sta Hydro Norwegian oil company, who was, actually the main contractor. For the project. So I was learning from one side, a theoretical part of the job, like systems thinking.

These were actually the courses as engineer, we never had the chance to, to learn about the financial management economy, organizational behavior, sales and marketing, finance and, and then, accounting, all these things that we never learned, negotiations, contracts for the first time. And then, at Job I was, again, a simple procurement specialist, but at different roles.

So now we are dealing with subcontractors. We are dealing with not only the, the the, technical side of the job and, and also with the contractual and financial side of, of the thing. And, later actually, I shifted to other roles like contract admin [00:04:00] and then became actually a business manager, for a telecom company.

British Single Korean, telecom company at the time was focusing on telecom systems in, at oil and gas projects. Um, while, uh, it was very interesting, but I found new opportunities to move to Canada. And, and at the time I couldn’t find a job For a while in my sector, oil, oil and gas was not in good shape.

Chemical industry at the time in Canada was not doing very well. At least I couldn’t find any jobs. So accidentally I was hired actually by a consulting engineering consulting firm, which was a great firm at the time and still are actually involved in a few mega projects in lan, transit project, sector, and an infrastructure sector.

So I was, hired as project coordinator, then promoted as project manager. Then I shifted to other companies and acted as project director and the senior project manager. And then at program level, [00:05:00] once we delivered a few projects, actually I received an offer from, our project delivery team because of diversified background maybe I had, and also, a little bit non-technical person and, and project manager at, transit.

Uh, they, they hired me. And, and maybe because of also ideas I had, they, offered me to. Reestablish global, project management development and, bring actually different teams from, from different regions and sectors and develop new practices for, for, different sizes and, and complexities of projects we call them.

That was actually the responsibility I had later are established in my own, small business, which we’ll discuss about it later as well. 

Orion Matthews: What an amazing background. And one thing I am so excited about for this conversation is what you said about how you think differently. And maybe that was part of why you were [00:06:00] brought in when, when we did our prep calls, I just noticed that you have a very unique perspective and way of explaining things that I think is gonna be really valuable in this conversation.

So 

Ellie Moradinezhad: it’s, it’s very fun. I, I don’t think I am different or anybody, everybody is unique. First of all. That’s what I extremely believe when you start to work with bigger teams and more people actually understand how different we see things and from psychological perspective later actually we see our background, our culture, our family members, the way we have been educated and experiences.

And for me, I think one mentor specifically affected how I see today actually. And, and somehow. Prepared me for my future journey. When I was a third, year of university, we had some internship programs. So I started to work in a, with, with a few of brands and classmates. We, we worked in a factory.

It, it was a chemical [00:07:00] textile factory. But the fun, the owner of the factory, who was a very successful business person and also factory owner, very well known actually in industry and, in the market. He was, you know, much older than us. He was, employees office at the end of each day to ask us, what did you do?

You know, what jobs did you do? What did you learn, for example, and what’s your plan for tomorrow? And he was giving us some advisors on daily basis how we can learn more and, uh, take the opportunity actually to grow. And one of his advisors that somehow shaped my future mindset was focus, not only focusing on our technical area, not only focusing on our specific chemical.

For example, engineering projects that we were mostly working at lab or sometimes for example, in, in, in production line as well, was inviting us to pay attention to bigger picture, to the giga picture. [00:08:00] How the machineries lay out, for example, are, um, being considered, for example, in production line, what are the relationship between different functions, for example, in the overall business to the min financial areas, procurement to sell to, to the, even, even I can remember very well, he was inviting us to pay attention to the personality types he selected for leading each area.

Like for example, the person who was managing lab, it was totally different from production line, how they are acting and deciding and for example, in different, uh, circumstances. So that was a kind of platform. That maybe guided me later to think even bigger, for example, and go and study my MBA. And even today, I think I consider it as a platform for my systems thinking as one tiny person.

But, but I think that helps, helped me a lot. 

Orion Matthews: That’s a perfect segue into our topic, which I believe is cross-functional integration and [00:09:00] systems thinking. So I, I’m excited to talk about this today. And one thing that I find interesting about cross-functional integration is that usually I hear about it in an after action review where people say it broke down.

I feel like we don’t talk about it enough before, like when you’re trying to build it, like how to build it correctly. So this conversation’s gonna be really enlightening for me, but maybe before we even get into it, could you help define what integration is, cross-functional integration to you to kind of help set the stage with that?

Ellie Moradinezhad: I love actually your approach that you start from definitions before actually, uh, diving deeper, because in my opinion, many misunderstandings start from different interpretations, uh, about one vocabulary or definition.

Integrate, uh, integration. As, actually, um, the action or process of combining two or more, for example, things [00:10:00] in an effective day. This is the Cambridge University’s actually definition of integration. So what happens in reality, we took actually the first part of combination of two or three or more actually functions or, or systems or areas, but we forget about effectiveness of that integration.

So in projects or organizations, that’s actually how we are defining, um, actually, uh, integration, which normally, again, because of, you know, um, misunderstanding or just, uh, uh, you know, isolation of, of different areas, the whole integration doesn’t happen properly. Being limited normally to systems integration.

They rarely actually be considered three major elements of organization or any projects as systems people es, [00:11:00] which in my opinion is very critical to consider when we are defining any system, we need to understand what are the PROEs. What are the objectives, what are the procedures? And then how we can adjust systems in order to address and make it effective, and are our team ready, for example.

And their skills, for example, is been upgraded in order to use this systems and understand those procedures and why it is essential to use and follow and, and each piece of it and why they have to follow. Because if they don’t understand it, they will not follow it. If they don’t find it effective for their specific work, they don’t follow it.

So that’s why we think actually these three elements, one level of integration is integration between these three elements, which data and systems, active data management or formation management can be categorized as a subcategory for [00:12:00] system, in my opinion, or the combination of three of these elements.

In many cases, human being can manage problems by simplifying them as much as possible, cut the edges and try to model it in a more simplified version.

The problem is sometimes we do oversimplify our systems proceeds and behaviors or whatever. By that oversimplifying, we are isolating the systems or the behaviors or the pro pros that causes actually some bigger issues that we see in scientific areas, mainly actually management, even in systems integration.

So in software, for example, development, it’s very difficult to go wide and cut, address everything at the same time. But what I really like about Agile, for example, and project management and, and for example, software development, which is a lesson actually we need to deliver and consider organizational, uh, changes more and more, or even at project level is how [00:13:00] to.

Do it iteratively, we cannot, yes, it is important to define the map in the beginning, identify the main functions, and then how they are acting in isolation and also in interaction with others. So when we are defining any system, including, for example, a system like software system or information system, or we are working actually, uh, considering one organization or one project as a system, systems thinking.

So now how the different functions have been defined, how they are acting individually and in interaction with each other and with with bigger environment. That is also another element actually that we need to consider when we are designing, for example, an infrastructure project. What are the effects on the communities, on future economy?

On, on, on future growth. Yes. So, and also on, on environmental impacts, how we are designing the future. So we cannot just focusing focus on, on that [00:14:00] specific task or system or, uh, that’s, that’s why I see actually that wider, wider, actually perspective, very important in designing of any sustainable, um, actually system, uh, inside organizational project or anywhere else.

Orion Matthews: Wow. That’s a lot to unpack and I’m excited to get into it. So what I heard is that there’s these sort of three. Areas that, that come together. It’s systems, people, and procedures. And one thing I was thinking about while you were talking about that was, um, it’s almost a little bit like to oversimplify chemistry.

Like you were talking about mixing those things together and I was thinking, wow, maybe there’s some interesting, like, um, perspectives from chemistry that you were able to apply to this organizational theory. Um, and then I also heard that you sort of have cross-functional, vertical and horizontal integration as well.

So you sort of have this matrix, um, going on. One question I have for you is, which ones come first? How do you sequence them? When, if you’re looking at, at setting up some cross-functional [00:15:00] integration, are you like, start with systems? Uh, what’s your approach there on the sequencing and how long, like maybe you could talk about time, right?

For the reaction to occur? Uh, yeah. Do you have some thoughts on sequences? It 

Ellie Moradinezhad: sounds huge. That’s, that’s why, why I think, um, everybody has str or is it struggling actually with the overall concept. And normally we are taking one, for example, we are focusing only on systems integration. But I want you to bring one example to you that may simplify it a little bit more.

The reality, for example, that your audience also may experience themselves. Um, and, and real examples of that, our clients, for example, all my previous, uh, companies were experiencing, um, just. We had, for example, very sophisticated systems, but our project managers, because they are extremely busy or our systems were designed in a way to capture the information from, uh, from very, very, sophisticated and advanced projects.

They were [00:16:00] designed actually in order to address the need for, for bigger and major projects. The, this is what I experienced. For example, at Hatch, we reached to a point that we have, we are dealing with thousands of small to medium sized projects. We don’t have any standards. We don’t have, our systems are not the best for addressing their needs because when your, your budget is small, then using sophisticated procedure systems, for example, uh, may actually kill your budget.

So this is not what you necessarily need to apply. So we are going to simplify as much as possible the need to apply actually in the projects and, and, and the information should be provided in during planning and then monitoring, during implementation, and then before, um, and even a strategizing, for example, how, what is essential.

On the other side, for example. Another example. So, so here we, we have both sides. We have systems and procedures. Normally we, we start from our objectives. We consider, for example, what environment we are dealing with, what are the specifications of that environment, what are the needs of that environment?

And then what are the best practices? It may not be the best version [00:17:00] from day one. So we are defining, we are working with different things. We are trying to identify the requirements like software, uh, software development. So that’s the first step. We are, uh, we are interviewing projects. We are going and evaluating the projects from different sectors, different in, in a specific, for example, tier and size or complexity.

And then we are identifying the requirements now based on them. We are identifying the overall ES needs, what is essential from project perspective. And then we go to higher level vertical. We think, okay, these are what project needs, but in higher level, in portfolio level, in program level, in business level.

Also, what other information are, are, uh, essential to monitor these projects from perspec, from business perspective and how to monitor the portfolio. Return of investment resource management, for example, in the business and many other aspects, uh, financial for example, and then revenue for example, calculations or projections.

So then we, we [00:18:00] go and interview the higher level. We see actually what are the required from vertical level. Now horizontal actually with, uh, different functionalities inside of the, were engaged in metrics, format and, and structure in multiple projects. Now we go and discuss and interview different functions to see, to understand what are the capabilities, what are their concerns, what are their problems that they are dealing on, constantly to find the right, you know, for example, forecast the required resources for future, for, for multiple of these projects.

And, and then these are the, the initial steps for requirements identification. Exactly the same process you have it at, uh, for software development. We have, even when we are defining a project during visibility studies. And so these are the first steps. Yes. And then we are evaluating it from financial perspective.

We are identifying different options. What is the best system? What is, for example, that addresses as much as possible and captures the needs that we are looking for. And then it’ll be iterated back and forth. Once we are developing, we are also identifying the needs for trainings [00:19:00] and, and then the associated cost with the trainings, associated time with the trainees, resources, for example, for trainings.

And if we have to, for example, train our team based on only, um, for example, which I’ve seen this, some companies are only training based on systems. Some of them only are training based on their procedures. But if you, during development phase, you engage your system, project con systems people, hr, finance, for example, project management, PMO and, and, and, and your different functions and business sector.

Now they, everybody’s aware of the overall concept. They’re putting their, uh, providing their inputs and also they’re reviewing so that cross. Functional review, which is normally something we consider it as part of very routine engineering management. I’ve not seen it enough in development of PMOs or even organizational development, how not only we are [00:20:00] involving them in requirements identification later, we are involving them in review and commenting on each other’s, for example, work and provide.

And that review and, uh, continuous improvement should take forever. So always the needs are changing, the market is changing, your projects are changing, your people are changing, the business need is changing, so you need to, to operate them continuously. So that’s actually how we see it. Hopefully, I I can explain it, uh, the way I actually responded to your question.

Orion Matthews: Yeah, no, that, that’s great. And I’m just thinking, you mentioned sort of, leadership going up and getting alignment up there. How do you work with them and explain the ROI of these initiatives? Like how have you gotten leadership buy-in for some of this, um, important work?

Ellie Moradinezhad: Very, very good question because unfortunately, development always is being pushed back because it is like, it’s like problem solving versus risk management when the problem is not there. Normally people are not investing for future growths [00:21:00] growth or for example, preventative, you know, solutions. Yeah. So in my opinion in general, these, uh, systems thinking, or integrated solutions in general are something that only you can understand the value.

When the, the structure, the project, the organization grows, we see the issue actually pop. The, the issues and concerns are popping up in many, uh, companies when they, they start to observe inconsistencies, claim, you know, for example, claim and, and legal actions, for example, growth and, and, and escalations or client dissatisfaction or projects, you know, project teams are acting as firefighters now.

So much pressure in the data discrepancy. The leaders actually don’t see reliable data. They don’t have access and they, they know something is wrong. They don’t know really what is it. And this is the, the case. Normally our clients [00:22:00] are reaching out, but I’ve seen many clients and in my past life incorporation level, actually even a lot of our managers were not interested in, um, in problem solving.

Why? Because going back to your main question about ROI, the main, ROI of, implementation of these integrated solutions is, uh, first of all, preventative growth opportunities can be created. It’s not very tangible in short time. Yeah. Unless they can see actually, oh, now, and, and when things go fine, everybody is fine.

Why we need more, more investment because they need money and they need time and they are slow processes. Um, but, but in addition, for example. Um, so once they start to observe the issues, you, they will call for action for us in order to define the ROI, not only we go for efficiency improvement, for example, an effectiveness of the, of the.

Um, actions and that, that the team are taking and the work, for example, that they are, they are doing. Um, in general, one of the major issues in [00:23:00] major projects or organizations is cost overrun, schedule delays, claims. So we are working with them on pilot level, sometimes on a smaller version to improve, for example, these areas and then start when they see actually the results on a smaller version, they can go for wider version and implement it, uh, and wider version.

But I, I’m, I’m going to tell you the truth now. Um, I myself made some mistakes and I didn’t communicate properly, the ROI and the benefits, uh, and the outcomes in a way that can convince a lot of my own managers in the past. Uh, you need to, to change your language communication language, go and see the things and problems from their perspective and explain actually how it affect and find the numbers on, on pilot level, um, and that, for example, share the aggregated numbers as much as possible with them gradually.

And, and that’s, that’s how I feel most probably will [00:24:00] work. 

Orion Matthews: It’s interesting. You, you’ve, uh, I can, I’m learning so much because I think about, as on a leadership level, oftentimes I might be looking at a problem and seeing those issues you’re talking about. And I think you’re, my initial like thought on how to solve something is usually like, oh, it’s a people problem, or we don’t have the procedures, right?

So it’s like you pick one of those pieces and then you dive deep and start an initiative on it. But what I’m hearing from you is that maybe, uh, it’s if you take an integrated approach and you say, okay, we have an integration issue here. Yes, this, the, these systems are broken, or the procedures aren’t quite right, or maybe we have the wrong people in the wrong seats, but like, maybe that’s like a flag where you’re like, Hey, it’s not just you’ve got the wrong people on deck.

Like it’s an integration. If you approach it from an integrated perspective, you might get more out of your issue. But I imagine those conversations might start with something like, ah, we got all the wrong [00:25:00] people. And then you have to like, help an executive understand that it’s actually not the people.

It’s a combination of things that isn’t so simple. Um, 

Ellie Moradinezhad: and then you have to build a plan around that. That’s exactly very true. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, blaming others always is the simplest way. Um, 

Orion Matthews: yeah, 

Ellie Moradinezhad: that’s, that’s how I see it. Blaming ourselves is the most difficult. Way. And I think in many cases when the systems are, or the, uh, when I’m talking about systems, I’m not only referring to softwares in general systems as systems thinking organizations or anything, uh, they don’t actually, um, work properly the way we expect.

As you mentioned very well, the reason is much more complex and because we don’t spend time for root cause analysis and root cause analysis might be multiple factors. I’m just going to make a few examples because in my opinion, examples normally help people, for example, to understand the issues very well, that how the [00:26:00] combination of training and procedures and systems can help.

If you fix three of them, actually you can, you can, uh, have much better results. We had a client, actually, they invested a lot on systems and the platform ERP system they selected was extremely customizable, very good platform for medium sized company, 2000, people and growing scaling up. And they wanted actually very customizable platform because the contractual models and delivery model was su so much and they implemented it, but nobody was using it properly on projects.

They were just, you know, defining WV. In a very different way. I mean, not really practical, doesn’t create any value. Actually reporting system, they kept the doors open for, uh, manual manipulation of the reports rather than data collection. And, and then what should [00:27:00] be, uh, analyzed rather than the roots, root causes rather than actually, I’m sorry.

Teenagers and project managers didn’t have the trainees. Okay, now we have new systems. This system has this capacity, but we are struggling actually to first of all enter all our projects because the system was not customized to capture actually all the contractual and delivery models.

And then to calculate, for example, the earned values or, or because different contractual models may need different, uh, revenue projections, may need actually different, uh, risk analysis, may need different actual reporting KPIs. And it was very difficult actually for them, and they were blaming the system.

So all project managers and functional managers, they were saying, oh, our, our previous system actually was, was much better than this. And when they started to ev evaluate, actually the system [00:28:00] was good. It had a lot of basis, but they were not using it properly. They actually deactivated a lot of capacity and, uh, and, uh, for example, reporting, even templates that the system had initially, and they didn’t, they didn’t define any progresses, sorry, procedures, formal procedures, how to manage different contractual model or different complexity of the projects.

Therefore, they weren’t, because there wasn’t any, any updated or upgraded, for example, pro procedures, they didn’t include it in the system either. They um, system was not capable of capturing even half of the projects maybe or monitoring, for example. Those projects that even were in the system were, uh, listed in the system.

So although on financial level, they could see very positive data, but then we were digging down in projects and we couldn’t see actually accurate cost data. We couldn’t see actually that even some of their projects were not, uh, listed in the [00:29:00] system. PMI system. They were man managing a lot of, uh, actually, um, workflow manually, like within Pokemon and Asset Management.

They were struggling with a lot of things, and team also were not educated how, how to use best practices and how to use the new systems. So it was a combination. And when we started to provide the report, the full report, they were so surprised how the problem actually is, much more complex comparing to what initially they were thinking, okay, we will just change the setup in the system and everything will be fine.

And no, normally that’s not the case. 

Orion Matthews: Well, so how do you get buy-in for those moments where you’re describing that resistance that you got where someone’s like my old system so much better? Um, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re getting a little pushback from the teams as you’re going about solving this.

Like, what tricks do you have for working with folks when you’ve got this resistance? 

Ellie Moradinezhad: Not easy, not easy. And in general, when we are [00:30:00] working together as a team, first of all, that’s my understanding. Something as engineer, I underestimated in the past and I overestimate today. And today, I think almost big portion of our decisions are being made emotionally rather than logically.

So personal connections, understanding actually the concerns where they are coming from and why they think that way. Um, when we understand the concern, if it is their, if, if it is based on pure change management, okay, we used to what we have, we don’t want actually to create a kind of, uh, difficult situation or new challenge for ourselves.

We are busy enough with our projects. We don’t look for some big change to actually, they don’t wanna actually to lose their control and authority. That’s the major issue actually when you’re doing, uh, organizational change. And then, um, a lot of people actually even have the idea, uh, of there is [00:31:00] some problem.

The, there are many problems. In many cases. What we normally do is engage them from day one. So the first actions always is start interviewing, start actually setting up workshops to hear the problem from their perspective and. In my opinion and, and, and, and working in multiple industries and, you know, many joint ventures and, and organizations, I started to observe that there are many people who see the reality.

It’s, it’s not right actually to say, no, I, I’m the only person actually I see the, the, the problem much clearer than me. Another thing is, okay, we have different perspectives, we things from different perspective. A person who is a very detail oriented sees spay, but he or she’s expert in that area. So I’m going to listen to him or hear her understand what’s [00:32:00] going on, on with that.

And there are some people who are visionary, leadership, normally visionary. We don’t, that’s not the case in all situations, but it’s important to see the problem from their perspective and their concerns. And then is resistance. Why stay cur as much as possible? Curiosity, in my opinion, I had an actually executive coach.

She always was trying to. Encourage me and then, uh, to stay curious, even if you see the problem. Um, as, as a consultant, as an advisor, if your client, if your team member, if the leadership don’t see the same problem as you, they will not buy it. They will not spend money on it. They will not allocate the resources for it.

So first we have to understand what is their problem. Engage them on early stage. They hear them, listen to them carefully, and then encourage them to talk as well. Because in many cases, especially in, in, in, in more political [00:33:00] or projects, for example, organizations are not interested in sharing their ideas.

They’re real ideas. So, uh, I found private interviews in addition to workshops, workshops is encouraging against each other or, or compliment, for example, each other’s comments. And in private they may share something. Be confidential, but, so in my opinion, that should be a part of any contract. And then by combination of a lot of them, in addition to your own analysis of the systems procedures, for example, in trainings and everything, uh, else you will find actually what are the real issues and make connected dots.

So now management knows something is wrong. They have their own your reasons for, for their concerns, and then you connect it to A, B, c, D as well and show them a little bit bigger picture. What uh, what are the root causes. Some cases you may be able to sell it. Some cases no. So we need to prioritize based on what they see as the priority.

Uh, and [00:34:00] then we, we need to address them most probably earlier, but at least you need to inform them. Then they, they can uh, actually find maybe some time and allocate some resources, uh, for those areas, additional areas as well. But it is successful to be honest. But we can do what we can do, let’s say. 

Orion Matthews: Okay.

Ellie, I’m curious about when you apply force versus not. So if you’re going into this conversation, you’re having some private chats, um, you’re kind of teasing out the actual big picture. Some executives. Maybe if in an organizational change moment or like, here’s what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna give a speech, lay it out.

Uh, everyone follows these procedures, everyone uses this system, no questions. If you don’t get in line, you’re done. And sometimes that seems somewhat effective and sometimes it seems super ineffective. So I guess I’m curious about like, when’s the right time to apply force, if at all? Like how do you balance that sort of listening to then saying, okay, we’ve heard you, you must do these things.

How do you sort out that? And when do you ask for the hammer or apply it [00:35:00] yourself? Um, if at all, 

Ellie Moradinezhad: it depends on, first of all, what is your role, uh, your authority level. And if you are acting as a consultant, you are a leader yourself. You are working in a joint venture environment.

You are dealing in multi-stakeholder environment. And so that really, um, helps me actually to understand, okay, what strategy might help more. This is a specific situation, and it might change occasion by occasion. So in case by case it doesn’t mean that, okay, this strategy worked at this moment. So always will work.

No, even inside a big organization, there is some openness in some specific areas or timelines. For example, the, the organization’s looking for growth. Uh, they are ready to invest, uh, on, for example, also organizational restructure, or they are dealing with serious threats or [00:36:00] problems, for example. So they are ready actually to accept some advices.

Uh, so, um, I think I look at where I’m standing versus where the organization is standing. What’s my role, what’s my accountability and authorization and, and how I can encourage the leadership to be aligned. So normally we, we present and we try to see from their perspective, gradually you go to higher and bigger, uh, leadership teams and you start to be, stay flexible, listen, adjust even sometimes you need to change your strategy just at the moment that you’re presenting how to encourage, you may even, you know, pass a few slides that you work so hard on it, but you don’t.

You don’t observe that, um, actually interest among the audience. So for higher level management, you are coming from their perspective, you are delivering what is interested, uh, what they are interested in, and what may be their main concerns. For example, and for technical team, you are just adjusting. It’s, these are [00:37:00] actually the, the very known tactics, I guess, uh, as advisor we are advising.

And then if they are, we are providing reports. We are providing actually, uh, written documents and letters to, to ensure that they have received, they were, they were aware of the concern and, uh, and the depth of it. And, uh, but, but ultimately they are the decision makers. So we cannot, they cannot decide on behalf of our clients.

We cannot decide even in, in a big, uh, uh, team. I think we need to be flexible. We need to set up things that, or systems or processes that work for everybody. At the end of the day, even if it is not the best system that we had in our mind, we need to stay flexible and curious to see, okay, this is not possible.

What else is possible that still addresses the overall, uh, concern or objectives? And, uh, we can go forward based on that. 

Orion Matthews: So you, you touched [00:38:00] on joint ventures and I know you have a lot of experience in that. How, maybe you can take us through the integration within the joint venture space. Are there differences in the way that you approach that?

Ellie Moradinezhad: Yeah, it is very different actually. So inside company of in, in, in one organization actually we have different functions and then different levels of management in regions and, uh, you understand the complexity. And then in joint venture environments, now we are dealing with totally different entities and then totally different objectives in some cases, for example, which may not be aligned at all except one objective, which is delivering the project successfully.

So what we do normally is a start from what is the common goal and uh, try to actually encourage that approach. Uh, when I was actually [00:39:00] working on a PC projects in oil and gas, we were spending lots of money on team building, which is something on infrastructure project ventures. I, I see less investment in this area.

My opinion, it is essential, essential. Because we are making our, for example, contractual models much more complex. We are now delivering a lot of our projects. Most of, uh, for example, Rayland transit projects currently in Ontario are following alliance or progressive models, which are extremely collaborative in nature.

They should be in order to succeed. The problem is if your team’s culture, actually the people who are engaged in the team from different, um, parties are not culturally adopting, for example this collaborative, uh, nature and culture, then you’ll be in serious issue, serious problem.

I mean, [00:40:00] when I was working in EPC project, although we were in joint ventures, still, the authority of the a PC contractor was too much. So they had, uh, they had, they had a lot of money as well. Infrastructure. It is actually, they, these projects normally are a base he money. So they’re trying actually not to invest, uh, so much on these kind of, they consider it as, and they’re trying to save those monies, but in my opinion, it is essential because the outcome will be very different.

Uh, when we started the first P three project, Edmonton crossed down. I started to observe the bit when the a PC project I work in this one by, of these project infrastructure projects were following, for example, design, bid, build and design built. For example, contractual model engineering team is the consultant of the project owner and is supervising general contractor.

Therefore, they are on two sides of one table. They are literally not collaborative that [00:41:00] much. They are criticizing each other’s work or, or something like that. Um, now we are working on a P three project. All of a sudden the same teams are acting differently. The engineer who was the advisor for the governmental agency and project owner now becomes the subcontractor of the construction team.

And we have issues. I mean, I can remember the first event, actually team building event. I participated. I was so surprised of some behaviors. Some, even the leadership for example, they are presenting their, the focus because they were the, the, the, the main client for us, they were focusing team, no word about design table.

And we were there at price. But then gradually, actually it shifted Teams, you know, started to learn a lot of workshops, a lot of events, additional events. And in leadership, actually few leadership were added. So the culture started to shift, which we had great example collaboration in, at least in my stations, I’m not aware of, of all areas with the, with construction team, maintenance team, operation team.

However, in my opinion, it is important to see the [00:42:00] differences. It is important to understand the contractual and delivery model. It is, is it is important to strategize. And from PMO perspective, it is important when we understand all these things, start to engage early, bring people and let them be a part of that governance creation.

Uh, however, in action, in many cases, actually it is getting dictated by the project owner in, in action, which is good but I, I see actually much more changes in the culture. Much more collaboration we started to observe, but in my opinion, progressive models and collaborative models even need bigger engagement of everybody.

Then another issue will remain actually as authority levels. Who is deciding for what, who is accounting for, you know, accountable for what? We, the roles and responsibilities, Ray C is, in my opinion, one of the major issues for these collaborative models and in joint venture environment. And then who is [00:43:00] responsible, what systems will be selected.

Because in these projects, each company comes and they have their own systems, ERPs or whatsoever they are not familiar with other systems. However, the industry actually normally change, it considers similar uh, systems, especially for project delivery. But the problem is in some cases they are not familiar.

So what on OnCore project we did for example, was we had specific meetings at leadership, led our information management and Beam team just to select a software that, and software selection on is not only based on the capabilities of the software, it’s based on the cost capabilities, integration with the project owners, for example, softwares and reporting, and also how many resources we have that are able to use this specific.

Currently, they don’t need actually so much, uh, trainings. Some other factors should be considered what version we have to choose, for example, in order to [00:44:00] integrate. And then some are a little bit backwards, some are a little bit forward thinking. And just reaching to the point that everything is, uh, is considered as one team is not an easy thing, especially in the beginning of project setup, but is a very interesting journey as well.

Orion Matthews: Well, so, uh, just to clarify, right, uh, raci, uh, responsible, accountable, consulted, informed. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that for those that might not know about that tool. ’cause it is such a great tool. So 

Ellie Moradinezhad: one of the most important, and, and it depends on the contractual model, but in all project delivery and, and planning, for example, sessions, that’s one of the documents we create.

Um, we have two other actually documents or plans on major projects. Uh, one is state management and then communication management. So stakeholders, normally race is a part of stakeholders management. So, so identifying inside the project and organizations, the roles and responsibilities of each.[00:45:00] 

For example, um, we are defining organizational structure. We are defining roles. People who is playing what role, and then we are identifying their, uh, job description or main responsibilities. And then what is authority level? For example, if, if the project is we are change and this change is within this level of budget, which is normally proportional considering the overall project budget, uh, that that’s the manager or even, you know, it depends on if you have a program, it’s a program manager or project manager who is deciding about that change.

But if it is a major technology change, if it is a major, for example, impact on a specific community or whatsoever it should be escalated, for example, to steering committee, uh, of the program or project or today, for example, on progressive models, we call it alliance, um, committee, [00:46:00] which is a little bit higher level than project team.

And, and then if it is even bigger than that, it should go to the client side, it go to the investors, for example, they should review it. So we have more level of decision making. It’s not an easy to identify everything in the beginning, but normally there are some formulas that can change, um, and, uh, during, you know, in, uh, for, for each specific project, considering their complexity, nature, and risk associated risks.

So we are identifying the roles. We are identifying the, the, the responsibilities, and then who will be ultimate accountable person. Okay. This decision might be decided, for example, by project manager, but then the accountability might by him or help may not be either. For example, a higher level might have the ultimate, uh, accountability for that subject, but has delegated, delegated, for example.

Mm-hmm. So, and then for [00:47:00] what’s level, actually it can delegate their responsibilities. For example, on paper, in many cases, project managers should review the, the cost and invoices. And, but when the project is major, they cannot review everything. They become a bottleneck. So now they delegate their responsibilities to all other leadership, uh, positions or even to lower levels.

And, and then, you know, what level of decision should be made, for example, by the project owner, uh, by construction team, by design team who is responsible. For example, for example, can be, be had a between construction team and design team to perform a specific task. And when it is designed bid build, normally they’re separated, they’re clear when it is one team approach.

Now this team says, no, this we have not seen, for example, this in on our budget, or we don’t have resources. The other slide is, so reporting to identify who is responsible for what, and then the [00:48:00] timeline where the resources and then the, the information. Normally the second, uh, round or or further stakeholders might be just informed.

They, so we consider the informed areas is maybe they are not getting a hundred percent acted or impacted by this decision, but we are not sure. So they may have something to add, they may have a different perspective. They, uh, get affected or impacted, and we are not seeing it. So we know that they should be contractually informed or they have the right actually to comment on it.

So these, these decisions and the, the reviews, the inputs for example, should be identified in the beginning. Who is consulted, who is informed, who is deciding, who is acting on, on every single task. 

Orion Matthews: So a controversial question for you. Who, what’s your opinion on in-person versus remote when you are working through these processes and setting up integration, how important is it to have teams come [00:49:00] together physically?

Um, how do you manage it when they’re distributed? And what’s your take on that, of what’s the optimal there? 

Ellie Moradinezhad: I think, it really depends on the type of job building and also the level of control we wanted to have over our team and also their mental health and feeling that team culture.

So these, these elements actually in my opinion, are very important to decide their. Presence in-person presence rather than remote. We delivered a proposal, which took two and a half years, technically we were working with global team and in design an engineering company, normally that’s very common.

We never use local teams. Only we are using for team. They were, uh, distributed from Australia, middle East, South Africa, um, Vancouver, United States, south America and can, uh, Ontario and Quebec. So everywhere, let’s say. [00:50:00] Yeah. And then it was not easy actually to co coordinate sometimes, but we didn’t have serious issues either.

Um, it needs a little bit more compromises, it needs a little bit more coordination, but, um, but in general, and, and if you need actually the best ex experts for some complex projects, we need to compromise on that side. Yeah. So we cannot really push that, oh, I need you actually in person. Another matter is, I, we worked actually on that, on, on on core proposal for two and a half years.

We won the job and it was a $15 billion job. Still, we could manage it properly, but. I think team especially was COVID period. Myself and the team started actually mentally to be affected somehow. So I personally had, was exhausted at the end of the job. I mean, uh, it was beautiful. It was progressive. We were working so good with the team, and joint venture was excellent in my opinion.

The team was excellent, but the problem was you can do it for certain time. So I personally think I today I prefer to have [00:51:00] both sides and, and also being together in one, uh, environment. For example, on Eglinton Crosstown, we were sitting, I was sitting at this desk, my construction team member was sitting next to me.

The, the client was sitting actually down floors and that was a project office, which helped actually creation of an environment that we really didn’t feel. We are, you know, from different teams, specifically when you are working in joint venture. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: You wanted to feel that you are one team.

So there are a lot of, uh, in my opinion, parameters considered in those decisions. It’s not one response that is the best, uh, for all projects or organizations. And technology also is another area. Actually we have to consider how advanced we are in tech, um, and performance management. 

Orion Matthews: That maybe that’s why for a lot of tech companies being a little more advanced with technology, they started that trend.

And, um, construction maybe is catching up. So some folks are ready and others might not be as much. Um, okay. Well I’m hitting you with hard questions. I’m curious if you have like a, a concrete example. ’cause we’ve got a lot of theoretical stuff [00:52:00] here. It’s really good. Maybe you can take us through a story of where you’ve applied these and gotten that ROI to a, to a large project to kind of help, just help people really cement the value that they’re gonna get out of doing some of this work.

Do you have any examples you can share? 

Ellie Moradinezhad: We actually have not developed any, I mean alone, let’s say A PMO for example, a major project. Normally these, uh, PMOs and these, um, uh, procedures and systems are being developed by multiple teams, strong teams, strong analysts, and, and leaders. Uh, it’s not, something just comes based on one person type of, you know, mentality.

Yeah. And, and it takes actual lot to, to develop each of these, uh, projects, PMO, or even organizations, PMO. But, um, what I’m, I’m working right now, today is more on, uh, and, and this has been done actually a little bit more individually. Major corporates. For example, at Hatch we were working with global teams [00:53:00] and, uh, we had a lot of teams, but still as first phase, we decided to focus on small projects, but in large volume.

Orion Matthews: Okay. So 

Ellie Moradinezhad: still it creates another type of complexity because, uh, and, and one of the issues, for example, we had over 4,000 projects globally, small to medium sized projects, different geographical locations, different continents. Um, and we were operating, uh, and delivering projects in over 150 countries.

And, uh, we had offices around 70 offices in, in 70 countries. Um, and then we, we were operating and delivering projects in different business sectors. So complexity of types of projects, risks, and size and, and the multiple factors, number of involved, for example, teams or contractual delivery, contractual models or delivery models actually were extremely diversified.

And it was very difficult actually to, to identify the one, uh, type of solution to [00:54:00] address the needs of everybody. But when you have, uh, you are leading actually A PMO, global PMO, you need to start somewhere. I mean, you need to decide actually what you are going to do to, um, consider as the priority, what you consider as the, you know, least important as recommended, for example, action by the team.

So, um, we needed to work with, with all, uh, countries and other offices, we needed to work with other, uh, sectors, business sectors to understand their problems. We needed to work with, uh, project control, our, uh, systems team, and IT, and systems and governance was separate. Quality management, hr, finance, all other functions as well to identify their needs and see actually what are the best practices.

The problem was going back actually to what we discussed. There were actually a lot of conflict complexities. Uh, for example, we had advisory services that needed to develop and deliver [00:55:00] project fast. Um, it was not maybe, you know, for example, 20,000, 30,000, 50,000 or environmental studies, for example, or, right.

So these need to be developed and delivered very quickly. And then we had some projects that were bigger and we needed to set up, we set up them properly from project management perspective. So we had that project classification to multiple tiers. We needed to now choose. Actually, what is the best sector?

What is the best size to focus? Uh, we, we went through the data, uh, projects they identified actually were most critical areas. We found actually, because these projects are extremely, on a smaller version. Normally they are specialty advisory type of projects, and the, they don’t have multiple, you know, disciplines involved.

The project manager normally is a technical person. For example, it is a breach about, for example, uh, report should be provided by, uh, breach engineer. So now he and maybe two other geotechnical, and they, they get engaged. So, and [00:56:00] normally that person is very technical. They don’t have the knowledge for project management.

They don’t have, they’re not using our systems proper. Not, um, actually even aware of a lot of, uh, project management or program management, for example, uh, principles. Uh, so we decided rather than training all of the dish in engineering companies, to be honest, anybody can be a project manager. At any level.

So, so we couldn’t train everybody on project management. It was becoming extremely expensive. It was becoming extremely difficult to identify and, and, and set up the time. And, uh, and, and also they were not interested, to be honest, a lot of them are not interested. Mm-hmm. He is, or she is a just technical person.

I love what I do. I don’t care about, for example, invoicing. Yeah. And that was the question I was receiving. Oh, shall I issue invoice? Shall I, for example, um, take care of risk, why [00:57:00] I have to do this? And yes, because now you are a project manager in addition to the technical expert. So we decided rather than to go for, to develop and train everybody on it to develop a platform, um, that includes step by step, uh, everything that is mandatory and or.

Um, is recommended as project manager depends on the size and complexity. Oh, cool. The systems trainings, for example, templates, you know, everything for all faces of the project from proposal and bit face up to the closing. So they know step by step whenever they have a problem, they can go and click and then, okay, this is a template I need or, or, or any, I don’t know how to use this system for such a, as, for example, area.

So we did, however, it became a little bit massive and heavy to maintain. So always we are trying actually to, because you some solutions, but then it creates new problems. That’s the problem. I think then we start to think, okay, [00:58:00] who will be responsible to maintain this huge monster now? 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: And uh, and we will have continuous changes in all those documents, training systems and whatsoever.

So that stayed, um, a problem by the time I left and hopefully they could find a way for it. But my point is these are the real struggles, for example, how, how we may, uh, deal with. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. That’s a great success story though. Thank you for sharing it. And um, you know, it kind of gets into a question about measuring that integration level.

Do you have advice for folks that are listening and they’re like. Maybe we’re not as integrated as we should be. How do you check your maturity level? How do you check on organizations when you think about them? You kind of gave us some clues earlier about, seeing problems, but is there, is there an accepted standard for organizational maturity?

Um, any 

Ellie Moradinezhad: There are, yes. Actually, it’s a good question. A question. So first we have process, how to evaluate, actually, as we mentioned, starting from in interviews and, uh, and into and, um, workshops. Uh, then there are, for example, PMI has its own maturity level, uh, evaluation at project, for [00:59:00] project management.

Um, for example, maturity project, uh, maturity checklist, and, uh, methodology in addition to prince two has one. So pro, uh, PMI has, actually OPM three. 

Please. Two class, um, P three, M three I guess. And then there are evaluation checklists and methodologies that you can find from instance perspective IT perspective.

And today we have bim, which in my opinion is aligned with information management, for example, evaluation. So which I’m living to you and your colleagues who have actually the systems background, but depends on each area we are looking for. We may use actually different, uh, methodologies because each of them I paid attention.

Going back to our first area of conversation, many of these methodologies are focusing on a specific area, um, but not, they are not covering actually that [01:00:00] integration from vertical, horizontal, and, um, the cross-functional. Mm-hmm. That’s something in my opinion, you might need. And this is what we have done.

We have created our own checklist and methodology, how to go through multiple areas and check it actually vertical, horizontal, and, and cross-functional and also between systems, procedures and people. Because again, any of these may focus on, for example, only procedures or only systems or only people. So it’s important you consider what you need and, uh, and maybe develop it by combining multiple of, uh, methods together.

Orion Matthews: That’s really helpful. Thank you. And, and exciting that you’ve created that, um, framework to help your clients. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: It is a kind of improving, uh, method. It’s not, it’s not finalized and I’m learning from others. I’m, uh, learning actually along the way from, from teams actually that I’m collaborating.

Um, I don’t think I know everything. I learn a lot and, and a lot of companies and organizations spend so much [01:01:00] money and so much, uh, and, and so many very experienced people were involved in development of their, uh, procedures and systems. But always collaboration, learning from each other actually helps us even to progress, uh, faster and, and develop better products.

Orion Matthews: Well, how do you see, like the AI trend and tooling intersecting with this cross-functional space, would you say that’s sort of emergent? Have you spent, uh, any time kind of thinking about those system, those new emerging technologies and how they’ll. Potentially intersect this either helping or hindering?

Ellie Moradinezhad: I think it does, if you like it or not. Still our industry is a little bit anti AI in my opinion, which I understand because of confidentiality of the information. Especially for example, on Rayland transit project on power plants, for example, nuclear power plants or aviation, they are associated with so much confidentiality and security matters.

Therefore, it’s not easy to share a lot of these information, uh, with [01:02:00] ai. And I’ve talked to multiple clients that because of the IP matters, because of security issues, they are a little bit, reluctant to join the, the whole wave. But if you like it or not, I think it’ll be a part of our work day to day life, uh, in managing mega projects.

And they can create a lot of value in my opinion. And they will, I think a big part of our planning and even monitoring teams will be replaced by them. Project control mainly in my opinion, but, or maybe the type of. Again, I’m thinking loudly. Maybe you can add, or I would like to hear the others, uh, perspectives.

In my opinion, the, and that pure analytical part will be allocated and assigned to AI and als, maybe, but still human beings interactions and the way we decide and analyze and look at different things is in my opinion, a little bit different. Stakeholder management, communication, for example. But AI is learning so fast [01:03:00] and I’m, myself actually, I got engaged, uh, with a few teams to develop actually a few agent solutions to address a few small areas and analysis.

It doesn’t mean it’s perfect, and I’m sure the others also have not achieved what they’re looking for because it needs a lot of fine, uh, tuning and a lot of, you know, advanced maybe work and take may, may take longer time, but I see many companies who started to look at it. And I think from reporting perspective, from integration perspective, actually that’s another, uh, uh, or I, and I would like to refer to it, I thought a lot about, okay, when you’re using multiple platforms and, uh, multiple systems, especially on infrastructure projects.

Integration of these platforms is extremely cost, expensive actually, and they are not cost effective. And also there are a lot of gaps when we are integrating these systems. And you cannot just integrate on [01:04:00] each project and then leave it, alone and then jump to another project again.

Now new systems, so the best thing might be actually integrating via, um, agent solutions and on reporting, uh, level, that’s how I see still, they, there would be some analytical elements, ai, uh, elements included and implemented and integrated with each individual solution. But on reporting level, definitely an integrated reporting and al and risk assessment and risk identification.

In my opinion, AI will be top-notch. And also another area is the efforts we are spending on contractual analysis. The, the efforts we are, you’re putting on, um, actual planning, proposal preparation, initial plans. It may not be the perfect one. It can identify much better than any other solution or platform we have.

It can go and evaluate the lessons learned from previous projects, identify the gaps, and then consider them in new planning, which we never had that chance before. And I believe it can help us [01:05:00] a lot for future projects. 

Orion Matthews: That’s a great, uh, view. I, I think you’re right. I’m curious where, uh, yeah, I think on, on my side, what I see happening is that, uh, you know, the prediction is by 2028, 15% of all decisions will be made autonomously within the sort of ma construction space.

Uh, I think of it as a, a decision accelerator where instead of spending your time building a markoff simulation and forecasting out, um, the schedule, uh, that’s done. So now it’s time to make a decision. And so it’s just sort of accel, it’s compressing time and giving people more to do on impactful decision making.

Um, which you still need cost engineers and schedulers to do that. It’s just really taking away what used to be maybe 80% of their job and now it maybe 80% of your job is gonna be. Ma thinking about organizations in a way you didn’t before or thinking about these big decisions and making them correct better.

Ellie Moradinezhad: I, I think scheduling cost, uh, estimation or cost monitoring can be done by AI in future. Already a few companies who started, I’m not going to name them, but, uh, focus on these specific areas. [01:06:00] Scheduling most probably is one of the most difficult ones. Uh, but it is possible, in my opinion, to use AI for planning and then monitoring as well for cost, you know, for example, calculations.

And then, in my opinion, what is extremely important, and we were doing not, we were not doing well in this area in addition to decision making that we mentioned, which is a very important, uh, actually area to, to look after, to, to look at it and consider it is risk management. Risk management. We are extremely underestimating risk management.

However, if we break it down to activity and task, and then in integrated version of the overall program or project, and then, considering all the changes, fast changes in the environment.

For example, in Middle East. Now we are, it’ll affect on the prices of, uh, some materials and how that affect or steel material. Because of the oil price changes now steel price may increase, and now we are developing a major infrastructure project that needs a lot of materials and steel, how that will affect on our project outcome [01:07:00] so these are major economical or geopolitical, for example, risks, but also can broken down to project level.

On the other side, on delivery side, we can see actually okay, delay in this area. Normally one of the areas we are lacking is to evaluate the change in one element or component or task and activity and how it affect on. Burden, um, activities and tasks, and we have that capacity to look at the activities and tasks that are, uh, on critical path.

But in many cases, if you have multiple changes and multiple areas than how it will let back, it becomes much more complex, in my opinion. And, and that’s what I think also, AI can help us to evaluate all the scenarios simultaneously and, and calculate the probabilities of the outcome much quicker than what we could do in the past.

Orion Matthews: Yeah, it’s gonna be very interesting to watch it unfold. From the software development side, we’ve, you know, we’ve really transitioned from writing code to reviewing code. You know, the, the job has changed just in the [01:08:00] last six months considerably. Um, it’s, so that industry’s probably being disrupted first, and we’ve got a little bit of time, but, uh, like you said, you’re already working on some AI projects, so it’s, it’s gonna come quick.

Uh, can I wanna switch gears just real quick, because in your bio, I didn’t mention this, Sally, but you are a vocal advocate for servant leadership, and I was wondering if you could tell us what that looks like sort of day to day on a $500 million billion dollar job. Like what’s, you know, tell us a little bit about that.

Ellie Moradinezhad: Um, it started actually from my observation in one of my projects back, uh, home actually. We were working at STAT with the STA Hydro and we had a manager who was two, three layers higher than my own manager. And I can remember for some certain issues, sometimes here and there, we needed to consult with him.

He was saying, always, don’t apologize, never thank me for the job that I’m here to do. I’m here to [01:09:00] solve the problems that you alone couldn’t solve and support you to achieve what you are supposed to achieve.

So that was a kind of experience that always, he was humble, always. I can remember in the team building events and whatsoever he and his wife actually were standing welcoming one by one. Every single team member who was entering. And then saying goodbye to one by one whenever we’re leaving. And I think today that is very important.

I don’t know if I had that opportunity to implement the same way, um, and treat my team to, to achieve the goal we all have together to help them to grow along with myself. So if I wanted to grow, my team should grow, and then we can deliver much more complex, more difficult projects successfully, and then we can learn from each other and then create a safe environment to let them share their problems.[01:10:00] 

Believe that we all have some, sometimes we are struggling with personal issues and or maybe even we have mistakes at work. Be brave to admit my own mistakes. Take the blames on behalf of the team and share the wins of the team with them and with the clients on behalf of the team to introduce the team as the.

As the main winner, to be honest, because these projects and these organizations cannot go forward alone. There is no leader actually can deliver anything big. We all are supposed to work together. We are social and, uh, social animals, let’s say, or creatures. And we can do big works as we did always so far together.

So mentorship also is another area. I think it’s extremely important to provide the, the support and coaching for other teams, New Generations. I work with them and I find them [01:11:00] extremely clever and they have different attitude, they have different mindset.

But I think, I think first of all, we are building the future with them and for them. So we need to understand their concerns as our potential acquires. Mm-hmm. And also understand, uh, how they see, uh, problems in the world. Another area is to understand differences of people based on their different backgrounds, different culture, different.

Mm. Even, even something actually that is being considered in some organizations and less in others is personality type differences. Uh, it is, I think the manager and leader’s main role is to identify and understand if not himself or herself is capable to do so, to discuss with them, ask for their preferences, what gives them stress, what, you know, create a safe environment for them.

Try to understand as much as possible each of them, and encourage that culture, because I’m going to make one [01:12:00] example. It’s funny, but it’s, it’s the, the truth. I’m a person who is dreamer, kind of, you know, always like big things, you know, and work on challenging. And a lot of people actually don’t like it.

I like big visions. A lot of people find it very unrealistic. And I work with team members that they are very detail oriented. Perfect, can just, and I, I ask them actually to review more work because I know they are brutal in criticize work and, and, and letting me know how I can improve it. So in the beginning when I was working as just linear, I didn’t know really, I, I never actually was interested in human being to be honest.

And, um, I never thought, oh, human being we can be different. Really. We can be different. Um, and then I was thinking, okay, I should, because I don’t like to be controlled. So most probably nobody else like to be controlled or nobody else wants to have the clear [01:13:00] tasks. Mm-hmm. No, actually a lot of people like it.

And actually, when you are working in complex environments and, and multiple teams and whatsoever that clarity is essential. So it depends. Personality depends on the scenario we are in. Uh, we need to consider different solutions or all possibilities then being, um, you know, um, kind and have the empathy against, uh, you know, the team and, and partners.

I can remember myself, I lost my father, during a project and, and I was, I was a little bit upset that my counterpart on, in our joint venture never asked and never said anything. Never expressed. Maybe she or he, for example, they were not feeling comfortable, but that human level touch mm-hmm.

Actually connects us together and, leads us actually to do everything together. Yes, today actually, I believe it is extremely [01:14:00] important. And, um, and I’m hoping actually I started to step into that path. I don’t know if I’m, I’m developing and implementing it fully, but I’m learning still and, uh, open to learn more.

Orion Matthews: That’s a powerful, I, I wanna work for you, Ellie. That sounds, you sound like a great boss. Uh, do you use personality tests or anything when you’re trying to kind of get a team figuring out their different style? It’s a very 

Ellie Moradinezhad: interesting thing, uh, to ask, because again, I was totally against psychology as engineer.

Yeah. I was, no, everything should be two plus two in equations and mathematics and whatsoever. But then I was struggling at some certain level for a specific area in a major project. And then my manager actually suggested me to work with an executive coach. And then that experience was very, very eye-opening for me, to be honest, to understand human being, to understand our differences, to understand, um, really we can see one object or one goal or whatsoever, but [01:15:00] to see it from a different perspective.

So we worked on, on, on multiple tests together and, I started to learn more about myself, let’s say. And I think I encourage, some companies don’t use these tests and many companies I know they are not using because sometimes these, the results can be misused, let’s say or, yeah. Uh, so, uh, but, but I think it’s important for us, for example, I could see some patterns in my own behavior or decision making or the things that could stress me and cause me actually that higher level of stress.

And I also started to identify some gaps in my own communication. Uh, I am a little bit, for example, intuitive, and I was observing the, the signals and I was jumping to conclusion. And then when we talk that day with engineers, they go, oh, I know, not upset. And they, they don’t, they don’t, they, they are losing you.

You at that moment, you’re lose, [01:16:00] especially if they are totally analytical or emotional. So I started to see, okay, how I have to correct my communication skill and not to assume that whatever I see everybody else see, because they see different things that I don’t see, ask them to be, to, to be clear about what they observe, the issue they observe of the, their perspective.

And also be clear about my own observations, my own concerns, or my own. For example, areas of interest. So I, I think it’s a, it’s a good thing to have, but, uh, I’m not sure if I can encourage everybody to, or all organizations to go to the, to them. It depends my, yeah. 

Orion Matthews: Well you mentioned the younger generation.

Um, I’m curious if you have career advice. You went, you were a chemical engineer in Iran and worked for Stat Oil and now you’re running your own PM consulting firm. You know, maybe some people are saying that’s a pretty great career path. I would love to get into the major project space [01:17:00] or, um, or build up a consultancy.

Do you have any advice for the younger audience or career changers, um, students, things like that? 

Ellie Moradinezhad: I, I think first of all, look at what you are interested and what makes you happy because we are not the same necessarily. Uh, and what makes me happy necessarily doesn’t make you happy or vice versa. And, um, try to, to learn and not to afraid of anything, not to let others to tell you what you are capable of, what you are not decide for yourself.

Although you may regret at some surgeon level, it might be tougher than what you expected. Starting a business in Canada is not easy. Consulting at all is not easy. 

Orion Matthews: Mm-hmm. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: Yeah. And I’m not, I’m not a hundred percent even today Sure. If it was the right decision or not, but I owed myself to try it, to give it a try because that was my, dream for many years.

But from other side, even when I was, for example, working at Hatch, uh, there was a program which I really [01:18:00] like, uh, was letting the project, especially project managers to work in different, uh, sectors and work in different roles. Even the CEO himself, he was a process engineer, I guess, but he worked for a while in project control.

He worked for, when he was younger in the same company he worked, for example, and another manager who worked at commissioning and construction management and other managers. So each of these managers and I, I find it very interesting approach to encourage, especially those people, those younger generations who are, who are dreaming about going and managing or getting involved in major projects, uh, or for example.

On, uh, you know, in leadership positions. Uh, so learning, you know, from educational perspective and for example, getting your MBA or certificate professional certificates or whatsoever is one way. Also trying to be open to experience different things is another thing. It is tough because you go back, restart everything.

Now when you are talking to a project controller, you understand as a project manager, they respect you because you understand their concerns. You understand you’re not just a project [01:19:00] manager that is working on politics or, or delivering their technical work.

So the same way I believe that everybody who manages any project needs technical knowledge on that, of that specific area. I didn’t have civil background. I was lucky actually to manage multidisciplinary teams, but I started, I needed to learn. I got some courses. My manager’s actually passing me some for, for example, track geometry design course or, for example, train control systems, for example.

Because you need the basis to communicate with the team. Still I’m lacking and I’m not good. And it’s very difficult to learn everything, but you need to have that principle. So in my opinion, younger generations, yes we are in rush to, to go fast, but we need to be patient step by step, accept more responsibility, be brave, try different things, try to communicate about, you [01:20:00] know, new things, new ideas, and uh, and learn.

Uh, this life actually is beautiful, this, uh, and, and there are so many things to learn. 

Orion Matthews: Well, one thing that people should probably learn is how to get in touch with you if they ever wanna hire your consulting firm. Is there a good way that, that, or is there a type of client you look for, um, a website that you have, things like that, that you can share with us?

Ellie Moradinezhad: I established tactile consulting while ago, a few years ago, and, uh, it’s a boutique style project and program management consulting firm. Uh, although we are providing the regular, uh, project and program management services as a part of delivery team or as advisor to our clients. But our main focus is PMO establishment and optimization, efficiency improvement, quality improvement.

And, uh, and also gap analysis, for example, with the team. Another area that we focus, uh, which is in my opinion, extremely important. Is change management in projects, which is one of the top reasons for project failure.

And in my opinion, it starts actually much earlier, uh, in project lifecycle from big face and proposal preparation and negotiation, [01:21:00] strategizing, and then continues and get close that project closing sensitive topic. And we just see change management as addition of the change, for example, cost and maybe effect on schedule.

And that’s maybe a little bit on risk, not that much, but it is, uh, a broader perspective. So we are helping our clients for preventative or strategy change to help them actually to get the approvals easier later. In collaborative environ lack of change management considers actually some other, bring some other issues that you’re working with our clients on that as well.

And also project, program and portfolio management. These are all the services that we are providing. How to, uh, aggregate the data, uh, from bring up to portfolio program, uh, management and business level and increase the. Reliability of those data and insights. Um, actually, uh, our website is tact [01:22:00] dash tie t actually, uh, dot com.

Um, people can use actually the contact form in the, the website or actually use info@signtech.com, uh, to reach out actually. And, uh, we’ll be happy to have, um, free consultation session to discuss about the digital problem and then start from there to see what is the best approach if, if we are the right fit for their, uh, advisory services.

Orion Matthews: Very cool. Um, and we’ll include all those links below for folks that, uh, you know, don’t have a pen and pencil handy. Uh, do you have any advice for people that want to go deeper on systems thinking integration? Do you have, uh, anything that they could look for there, like, uh, you know, books, groups to join?

Um, anything that that comes to mind that you’d like to share for takeaways? 

Ellie Moradinezhad: I personally, uh, uh, we discussed about this actually in our prep work, and this is, um, my principle in general. And I think it will [01:23:00] help. It may sound a little bit weird because in my opinion, reading literature, you can just Google and find thousands of, reference books and articles and blah blah.

But in order to have real systems thinking, we need to be open-minded STEM systems thinking, in my opinion, more than anything is else, is a mindset. How to be open for contradictory information you receive. How to have the ability to review, analyze, and absorb the right information that rather than just being affected by one specific methodology or one specific, for example, guideline or one specific media.

And those who are engaging in major leadership positions or managing major projects or programs, they should have, in my opinion, much wider and broad, broader information. Not only about the [01:24:00] project delivery and technical areas or project control or, or stakeholders.

They need to know about finance. They need to know about, uh, economy. They need to know about politics. Politics actually is one of the main, uh. Actually influencers on these major projects. So if the project manager doesn’t understand what is, for example, the strategic influencers, the stakeholder, sometimes we underestimate the specific stakeholder.

Sometimes we, the, our client comes and wants totally to change the whole project, for example, lifecycle. Because rather than doing pre-feasibility, feasibility studies and whatsoever they wanted to do the procurement of their major equipment right before even design actually progresses enough. So as project managers, we need to have the understanding of risk and not risk only at project level.

Also about economical risk, political risk, uh, identification of the environmental risk, social risk, and many other factors in order to make the right decision. And as even technical advisors to advise our clients [01:25:00] on the right decision if this is the right decision to procure it early or no, let’s, let’s start, if, if the client doesn’t want to accept, at least we need to document, we need to provide, for example, the information the client needs to make the right decision, then that would be their, their decision.

Of course. But my point is. At any level, in my opinion, one of the issues we are struggling today is we become actually very polarized. A lot of people are focusing only on technical, for example, publish with, uh, publishers mm-hmm. Or references or spending a lot on only ai, ai, ai, but then forgetting actually about concerns, social concerns, or a lot of others, uh, for example, security concerns.

So we need to widen our perspective, try to, yes, our time is limited, but we can be selective gradually we’ll learn, okay, what references work better. Sometimes also read totally contradictory opinions, and that’s something I’m encouraging [01:26:00] every single person I do myself as well, as much as possible.

Sometimes it’s difficult to sit there and listen. Okay. I mean, this doesn’t sound logical at all, but it’s a perspective and it’s important to hear it because your client might have the same perspective. So you need to be ready for it to be honest and understand that concern or that perspective. So, hopefully I responded actually, the way is, uh, it is, it is a little bit broader and, uh, 

Orion Matthews: no, that’s super helpful.

I think what I heard from that was that there are all of these different disciplines and there are people, like the takeaway is understand. Other people’s perspectives. So if you’re working with procurement, maybe you need to know a little bit more about procurement than just surface level.

What are the people in engineering doing? What about it? Like what do they care about? Like if you actually don’t have to like become an IT expert, but maybe just kind of learn their world to try and get a little bit of a view from their perspective. And then by taking little bites of all of those [01:27:00] pieces, it sort of strengthens overall your ability to think in systems.

Like you can’t think in systems if you can’t see everyone. See a little bit from other people’s. That’s true. But 

Ellie Moradinezhad: also there are some broader areas like psychology. We never, as an engineer, I worked as an engineer knowing most, most of engineers actually are introverted people. Not everybody, but a lot of them.

You are not interested in communication very well. But leadership, for example, courses or contents, for example, psychology, contents, these are the areas even are not related directly to our work or technology. Yeah. In my opinion, no matter what, if I like it or not, I’m an environmental expert. I need to learn about technology because at the end of the day I will be affected and affected.

Technology. So it is better. I get ready for it. I be aware of the consequences or, or this actually that can create new opportunities for me. So that’s why I think really don’t limit yourself. Try and broaden make your mindset broader. That’s the first step. To see things actually to, to start, identify and [01:28:00] understand systems thinking.

Next step will be, okay, these are the practices. Actually how I, I get, I be able actually to map how system works. How, for example, just simple practice. Okay, I wanted to do gardening. What are the elements, you know, in a garden, what I have to consider? Soil, water, sun and the, the seed or the, for example, plants and choosing if it is shade, if it is sunny, if it, how many hours for, so we consider, and then, okay, what zone, geographical zone I’m working in.

What type of plans, for example, work. And then what? So you consider all the elements? Yes. And then, I don’t know, environmental climate shift. Okay. Today actually, what, by yesterday we were planning, for example, more, um, regular, for example, plans. Now we are, we are going actually in future to struggle with water issues in many areas.

Now we have to shift, we need to reconsider new things. So in order to be able possible that understanding, wider understanding and knowledge is, has to stay open as you [01:29:00] explained earlier, and then start to map things together. How, how, what elements are important patient, these are the most important functions or elements.

Now if I go wider, how environment can interact with this small system that I, I define how the client, how the society community. And then we can start actually to make the right decisions and design the best systems considering ing. 

Orion Matthews: Ellie, thank you so much for sharing that takeaway and for coming on the pod sharing, um, you know, both personal stories that are really impactful and, uh, professional examples and really taking us through this integrations thinking.

It is, it is hard getting your head around it. It’s a lot. And, uh, thank you for breaking it down. Um, I really appreciate you coming on. 

Ellie Moradinezhad: Appreciate Orion. I think you guys are doing an excellent job and I’m looking forward actually to hear and learn more from yourself [01:30:00] and, uh, your other guests and future podcasts too.

And thank you so much. 

Orion Matthews: All right, Ellie, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, again, you can get her at Tact Hive Consulting, so tact hive.com and then on LinkedIn, um, Ellie, M-O-R-A-D-I-N-E-Z-H-A-D and we’ll have all those links below. Thanks for joining us today. If you’d like to learn more about project controls and project management, feel free to drop as follow or check us out at the major project podcast.com.