Host: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Major Project podcast, your inside. Look at the high stakes world of billion dollar projects. 

Orion Matthews: Jeff, uh, I believe you are maybe one of the world’s leading experts, if not the leading expert on advanced work packages.

Welcome to the podcast and um, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your history and a little bit about, uh, your art. 

Geoff Ryan: Okay. Well, thank you very much. Um, first of all, uh, I really appreciate, uh, being invited to be here today. Um, you know, one of the, uh, issues we have with advanced work packaging is getting the message out, so this is helping and I appreciate that.

Um, so thank you very much. Re um, so, uh, little bit of history on me. Um, so I was in construction. I was actually a pipe fitter for many years, um, and, uh, worked through the, uh, the ranks of. Construction to become a project manager. Um, studied to be a project manager and got involved with some collaboration [00:01:00] organizations in Alberta when we were working on mega projects and we were trying to figure out why they go sideways.

Um, uh, we had a series of mega projects, uh, in the early two thousands that, uh, had really bad results. Um, so anyway, um, so I was, uh, I joined a committee of other, um, uh, uh, owner representatives and we did research for about, uh, for about two years, I guess, where we, we looked at projects that were being successful and ones that weren’t being successful.

And we tried to figure out what, what are the, the differences? Um, and something that all of your viewers will understand is the difference was planning, um, but not just planning. It was good quality plans with a tangible deliverable. So our tangible deliverable from that was that the foreman gives a package, the foreman gives a package.

So ideally it’s a like a week long and before we give it to the foreman. It has been proven and we found that the contractors that were doing that were getting lots of work done, which is not news to anybody either. Um, but [00:02:00] anyway, that became the model for work face planning, uh, work face being, you know, the work face in a coal mine when that’s where the pick hits the coal.

So we, we, uh, we coined that phrase, uh, based on the idea that, you know, it’s all about the workers. It’s all about the workers and the foreman. If we can give them everything they need, then they get a lot of stuff done. Now, if you don’t give it to them, they don’t get much done. No. So anyway, so that was the, the model.

So go ahead. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. Well, so I’m super, so you were on a committee then kind of early on looking at these things and it, and the committee sort of came to the conclusion. It’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s the moment of that when someone has something to do and they don’t know what to do, that’s the. Because I mean, I, I think our view viewers all know, I think the stats are like 98% of all projects fail to meet their scope and schedule budget.

And when you’re in the sort of, uh, you know, large scale project, those are hundreds of millions of dollars we’re talking about. Um, but anyway, so the committee, so, so you saw [00:03:00] this and then what, what happened from there? How did they come up with sort of the answer? How do you make those, give those people information they need?

Geoff Ryan: So essentially, um, um, we were so very strict on ourselves. We weren’t trying to create an answer. We wanted to capture best practices. Uh, so we had to have examples of where people were doing this and they were being successful. Uh, so we captured that and we basically rolled that out to the industry and said, Hey, these guys are building packages, giving it to the foreman and getting lots done.

They’re very predictable, um, which is a bit wishy-washy, but, uh, and it’s a bit more detailed than that. So we rolled that out at a series of conferences over, uh, up to, uh, 2005. Um, one of the problems that we had was that people could only get that literature and go away and try it. They didn’t really have any other support for that.

So, um, so anyway, at the time I decided to quit my job and hang my shingle up and say, Hey, [00:04:00] I’ll, I’ll help. Okay, I understand this well enough. So that was the start of our company. Um, so then, uh, we were doing that for a number of years on a number of mega projects in Alberta being successful. Uh, and then CII, the Construction Industry Institute out of the University of Texas came to one of our conferences, saw what we were talking about, and said, Hey, this looks like it has merit.

We would like to take it home and do a bit more research on it. Uh, so they formed a committee, uh, to do that. Research team. Uh, they come back after a couple of years and said, well, uh, it’s not actually just a construction problem. It’s an engineering procurement construction problem. 

Orion Matthews: Mm. Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: It’s okay to say we want packages, but if you don’t have the drawings, you don’t have the materials, you’re not building packages.

Essentially, they did the same thing. They went out into the industry and said, who’s doing this? And they found some organizations that had alignment across what they engineered, what they procured, and then what they tried to build. And so [00:05:00] the work face planning model that we, uh, developed in Alberta expanded into advanced work packaging, which was the, uh, the, the bigger version of that.

Orion Matthews: So then maybe just break it down. Let’s say that I, because I am a complete idiot, and we have a few folks on the call that are probably very junior in their understanding of project control. So if we say work package, are we talking about a physical, you know, uh, work package that you hand to somebody, um, you know, kind of just take us through it.

Like, I’m a foreman and I just started and I’m getting an advanced work package. What does that look like for you? 

Geoff Ryan: So, yes, it’s a, a physical package, um, but it could, it can also just be a digital package. So our, the package that we give to the foreman is actually called an installation work package to separate it from the other packages.

Ideally, it’s a document that says, this is what we’re trying to get done, right? So here’s the scope. Here’s your material. So we’ve, we’ve organized for the material to be delivered [00:06:00] to the site. Uh, we say, okay, we think it’s five days work for 10 people. So you can, to earn 500 hours when you get this done, you’re gonna need these tools, you’re gonna need a crane, you’re gonna need this permits.

Basically sort of setting the foreman up to understand, uh, an expectation of what we expect to get done, but also that we’ve done everything we can to try to make that happen. And, uh, now it’s their role to execute. 

Orion Matthews: Do you include, just in that package, do you include a list of risks? Is it almost like a mini project plan or does it, um, is that part kind of abstracted out?

Geoff Ryan: Yes. Um, and that’s a actually a really good point. So in any plan, of course you need, uh, quality and safety addressed. Uh, so certainly, uh, safety risks are identified in the plan, uh, but also quality checkpoints if you like. So, hey, when we do this, we need to have this quality documentation, or you need to call in this quality inspection.

Um, and also of course, you know, yes, there are risks, there are inherent risks [00:07:00] in trying to do any work. Like, um, is the prerequisite work done? Do we have the right materials? Do they fit all sorts of, uh, risks that, um, could go wrong? So yeah, we have a bit of a, uh, a risk register in, in the back of a, a package that says, this is the, this is what could go wrong.

This is what to do if it does go wrong. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. Well, and, and you said that you, um, it seems like this is a natural evolution of the project management space. I know we’ve talked before offline about how. When you originally started, and I felt this way about some of the data stuff as well, it’s like, you’re like, why isn’t everybody just going for this?

This is so, such a self-evident, sort of natural progression for our industry, and I know you’ve been at it for a while and those that work with you or having amazing success, and what do you think is the challenge? Is there, like, I guess if I’m a PM listening to this on a major project or maybe an executive, like how do you actually implement it and what are the challenges to implementing it?

[00:08:00] Because it’s like, where have you seen it, I guess, fail to be implemented properly or, um, you know how like if I am Yeah. If I’m a PM and I wanna start this in my practice, how do you do it? 

Geoff Ryan: Okay. So first of all, and, and thank you for hitting on that, um, project management is a unique discipline. So we talk about a project having engineering, procurement and construction.

Well, there is a, um, a conductor of that orchestra, which is called project management. So project management needs to be recognized as, um, uh, a holistic view of the project. Um, I raised a couple of teenagers, so I often think of this as, you know, I’m the parent in the room as the project manager and I’m trying to get these teenagers to play nice with each other.

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: Essentially. Yeah, essentially that’s it. You know, we’re trying to get engineering to give procurement what they want and give construction what they want. While, you know, that, um, for the longest [00:09:00] time we had this theory in, in mega projects, especially that if you siloed engineering, procurement and construction and then you just, um, optimized each one of those that we would end up with a good result.

Uh, well, the reality is that if you optimize engineering and procurement to their own budgets and schedules, then construction pay the price. Because they are, they are not producing the drawings and the materials that construction need. And of course construction represents, um, truly represents half of the cost of any project.

So we are sub, we are optimizing the, the smaller costs and, and, and um, uh, the construction are paying the big price. So where it fails, of course, is where we try, we don’t manage to break that model. Uh, so we don’t get alignment across what we engineer or the sequence of engineering, the sequence of procurement, uh, to match the sequence of construction.

So, and I’ve heard people talk about basically sort of flipping the table here and we are making construction the boss, and we say to [00:10:00] construction, you know, one of the things we would do at the start of a project is to say to them, uh, we’d have a path of construction workshop. And we say, imagine to the construction team.

Imagine construction in heaven. You know, what does that look like? Yeah, right. Because the construction guys are, okay, well I’d do this first and then I do this, and then I do this and this. We’ve got, we’ve got engineering and procurement in the room. We’re like, Hey, is it possible that you guys could deliver that in that sequence?

Um, basically helping them understand the holistic approach to trying to get the project finished. So, yeah, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a different way of, of thinking of, um, uh, relationships, if you like, between EP and C. 

Orion Matthews: So when you work with orgs that come to you, and I know we gotta talk about data centers, but I’m just like, really wanna really wanna get into this a little bit more, but like, say somebody, um, I’m a pm I’m running a multi-billion dollar project.

Let’s say I’m in execute, so I’m in a messy [00:11:00] phase. Can I still come to you and have you help me with advanced work packages? Or are we too far along, would you say? Like, and. 

Geoff Ryan: Yeah, so, so this, this question comes up in, in varying different ways. Now, what if my project’s really small? Uh, what if I’ve got different priorities on the projects?

You know, what if I’m, I’m too late? What if I can’t control materials? Well, and that’s why, um, it’s such a good, um, foundational, um, deliverable is the installation work package. You know, it’s all about that package. If that’s all you do, if you just make sure that you don’t, every time you give a foreman an instruction to work that they can do the work.

So don’t put out work you can’t do. Just put out work you can do, which is, I know like, you know, I love, I love talking to, uh, new graduates that come into our industry and I say that to them and they’re like, well, what were you doing before that? Like [00:12:00] you wouldn’t believe. So yes, if you just focus on building packages that are executable, you will get results.

And you can do that at any stage of the project. Of course, the earlier you get started down that path, the more packages you can build that are executable. 

Orion Matthews: And, okay. One last question I guess I’m, I’m super curious about, you know, they talk about form over function, right? So, at least in my world with developers, you can hand a developer a great project plan, almost like an advanced work package in say some app out there.

And if they don’t use the app, it’s completely lost. Or if you deliver an email that says, I need you to do all these things, but the email is like mis structured and it says what it needs to say, but it’s like the form of it, the, the design isn’t good. Um, it’s like the message gets lost. And I’m curious if in the work package.

Like if foreman, you know, it’s like how you [00:13:00] present the work package also matters. And if you’ve done any like, thinkings along those lines as well. Like, do you have a tool or Yeah, tell me, tell me about the, the form. 

Geoff Ryan: So, so let’s talk about two elements of that question. So we’ve got the, uh, the foreman and how they execute, but also upstream of that and, you know, all of those functions that we need in place in order to be able to build a package.

Um, so, uh, let’s talk about the foreman first. So first of all, uh, you’re absolutely right. We have to train them to do this ’cause they don’t trust us. You know, we’ve been treating them like, um, you know, sort of second class for ages where we push a foreman into the field, we give ’em 10 people. We say, keep those guys busy and get it done.

Yeah. And then we starve them for information and materials and they can’t get the crane and they don’t have access and it takes ages to get a permit. Um, so, you know, they’re scrambling trying to get stuff done. So they’re going from that environment to where we say, give ’em a package and we say, Hey, trust us, you’ll be good now.

[00:14:00] And they’re like, yeah, right. So, so they, they, they still don’t, it, it takes time to go from, uh, basically, uh, survival mode into, okay, this is what I’m gonna do over the course of the next five days, I’m gonna do this, then this, then this and this. And so yes, we, uh, we, we thought once we gave a package to a foreman, we, we were home.

But the reality is you have to teach them how to plan and execute a week’s work based on yes, you’re probably gonna be able to do it. So that’s. First part is yes. Um, we need to look after that because that is a change. Um, upstream of that, when we talk about the, um, understanding if we can actually get stuff done, we act.

Uh, CII put out a, a list of, um, 60 conditions that said, okay, when these conditions were in place, a WP works really well. And there’s a whole bunch of things like, what does the schedule look like? Are you tracking progress? Um, uh, you know, uh, uh, when we, uh, develop a purchase order, do we have [00:15:00] CWP in it?

There’s, there’s a bunch of conditions. Mm-hmm. So, um, so ideally, of course, this is sort of like the health check before you get to that form and package. So ideally we are, uh, running an audit, if you like, on the process as it develops to see how aligned are we with best practices, because, uh, that tells you a lot more about the, our ability to build these packages than the actual package.

So, so there’s, uh, there’s a way to check that and a, a way to, if you like, um, drive that behavior within the organization. And there’s a way to, um, help the foreman, uh, adapt to this new, um, uh, environment of, uh, of um, uh, uh, plenty. 

Orion Matthews: And then just as a, um, I guess like as a wrap before we move on to the data center part, like to zoom up and say, okay, you talk to me as a project manager, I’m like, great, my foreman have what they need.

I love that. [00:16:00] And again, I don’t wanna sound like a commercial for a WP, but I already, I went to one of your presentations, so I love it so much. But, um, if I’m the project director, um, and I am trying to tell my stakeholders, uh, what’s the ROI on this ’cause great foremans have what they need, whatever, they won’t be second class citizens, that’s fine.

But like, let’s break it down to the dollars here. Like, I’m running a billion dollar project. What does this actually, how does this benefit to either the schedule, the, the, the cost and or the risk reduction? Like where do you, how do you get that ROI and make the case? 

Geoff Ryan: So we, we struggle with a question for a long time.

Um, uh, um, now we, um, uh, we have, um, about 10 years ago we started to apply that scorecard that I talked about with, uh, CII. Um, and at the same time we did tool time studies. So, uh, the, uh, benefit of that is, you see, okay, this is how [00:17:00] aligned a project is with, uh, best practices, uh, based on the scorecard and, and the CII, uh, best practice list of best practices.

And we go out in the tool in the field and we say, and this is how busy the workers are, right? Because we did a tool time study. Now, as you can imagine, there’s a correlation between how organized the project is and how busy the workers are. Because I, and I think that’s your question, um, is, Hey, what’s the, what’s the return on this?

So the, the great thing about that is after you get a whole pile of those projects, and we have, uh, 70 of them, so we have 70 mega projects over the last 10 years, uh, from around the world, you get that pile of data, you can average, um, uh, the data to say, okay, so on average when a, a project is this much compliant with, uh, best practices, then their workers are gonna be this busy.

And if they are this much compliant, if they’re only 45% compliant, their bus, their workers are gonna be this busy. Once you have those points established, you can say, okay, this [00:18:00] is how much it actually changes. So the answer is 22%. So, so the workers, uh, so the difference between 45% compliant with best practices and 75% compliant.

So it’s not, you know, there’s not perfect, but mm-hmm. That’s the average. The difference is 22%. Busier workers. 

Orion Matthews: Wow. 

Geoff Ryan: So, you know, in a rough translation, let’s say that you get 20% more done every day. You know, just think about that. Across 5,000 workers. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah, 

Geoff Ryan: yeah. Um, yeah. So it works out to about 10% of the total cost of the pro.

Uh, the project is what’s on the table, which is a, a crazy statement. You should not be able to move a billion dollar project, 10%. Right. But that’s essentially what’s on the table. 

Orion Matthews: And, you know, I think that won’t be on the table forever, but it’s on the table today. ’cause what I’ve noticed is the stats are horrifying about project [00:19:00] execution.

One of the reasons that I was hoping to do this podcast was that I think our industry doesn’t have great track records. Um, and I, I would love to see the world be able to create projects that aren’t over budget and over, uh, schedule. All the time. It feels like people just assume like if I do a billion dollar project, it’s gonna be late, it’s gonna be a wreck.

And um, we accept it. Yeah. We accept it as fact. And there are these things that I think we’re progressing in our art form and eventually we’re gonna crack the code. And this is like, I, I, this is a huge piece of it. So, 

Geoff Ryan: um, well, you know, that, um, if nothing else, I would like to, um, uh, share with people the fact that today the reality is it’s a choice.

You have the choice to finish on time and on budget. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah, that’s, that’s a great way to say it. That’s interesting. Okay. Alright. So I think we’ve talked about work packages. Uh, we’ve talked about advanced [00:20:00] work packages. We didn’t talk much about the Pepsi model versus the EPC model. We kind of dived into that of sort of the old versus the new, um, more of a holistic look.

Can we switch a little bit right now, Jeff, and talk about data centers? So I know you’re working in the space. Um, I think there’s a. How many data centers do you remember are coming up over the next five years? 

Geoff Ryan: This is in the U, this just the us uh, basically 2,700 mega projects before 2030. So you know, if each one of those is in the range of a hundred to 500 million, do the math on that and understand that.

Yeah. It’s basically a gold rush. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. For the owners that are building those data centers. It’s also a landmine where, well, I think a couple things, like you and I are in this space of mega project Buildouts, and I, I liken it to like ship captains where uh, once I was on a cruise ship [00:21:00] and the Mediterranean, I’m originally from Alaska and I got to meet the captain and he was like, oh yeah, I worked in Alaska, I did the, you know, blah, blah.

And I realized that the ship captain world is actually really small. Like they all know each other. It’s a space, even though it’s a worldwide thing, it’s actually a very small art. And, um, I think that our space is like that as well. So when you say all of a sudden, hey, we’re gonna build 3000 data centers, it’s like, well, what per, who’s gonna be the, you know, project director of those 3000 project directors?

We don’t have that many people. Obviously we’re gonna have to bring ’em up through the universities, but in five years and so. I guess the other part of that that, that I think is interesting is we need repeatable successful things like a WP and products that make sense or productize service offerings that make sense to like execute on that work at scale, like in a thoughtful way.

Um, so anyway, uh, that’s, um, yeah, I think that’s one of the [00:22:00] big challenges of putting together 3000 data centers right now. 

Geoff Ryan: Yep. And that’s, that’s a great foundation for this conversation. Um, I should start by saying, you know, we, we’ll have to do this again in 2030 and, and we’ll have a laugh at what we’re talking about right now ’cause I’m sure it’ll be wildly different answer.

Orion Matthews: Yeah. We went from Pepsi model to EPC to ai, just does everything model in 2030. Yeah. Right. 

Geoff Ryan: Um, so importantly, um, you know, the foundations of a WP are still present, you know, if we want to get it done, we need to get back to, you know, every time we send a foreman into the field, they have to have a package.

Um, and so that doesn’t change. Now, if we wanna get done, we want to do things productively. That’s our, that’s our stake in the ground. So the, the big thing about the Pepsi model, um, so maybe we should just talk that through, I guess for listeners. You know, that we, uh, in a typical environment, we engineer it and then we say, okay, if we’re gonna, if [00:23:00] we needle, if we’re gonna build it this way, we’re gonna needle this equipment.

And then we go ahead and, and construct it. So we put all the parts together. What’s happening in the data center world, um, is that there is the, uh, a major, um, gold rush for equipment. So rather than being able to say, okay, this is what I want, and then going out into the market to find it, you need to go out into the market and figure out what can I buy or what’s available, and use a combination of that answer to come up with what your capacity or the capacity you’re trying to achieve, and then you design around what you could procure.

So that’s the procurement, engineering, planning, construction, uh, initiate model, which is the Pepsi model. So that, um, makes things different for us. Um, so, uh, of course, um, and, uh, it’s a strange space for engineering to not be able to just say, this is [00:24:00] what I want, therefore go buy it. Um, uh, uh, it’s uh, basically, um, uh, if you like an agile engineering space where you say, okay, you can’t have one of these.

You can have to have two of these and one of those and maybe use this one to, uh, patch that one together. Um, and, uh, and then you have to design around that complicated by, uh, technology, which is changing every six months. So, um, you know that as much as we want to build something and have it operate for the next 50 years, our data centers will not do that.

They, the technology is gonna change every, you know, every year, if not six months. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: So basically everything we build has to be modularized so it can be pulled out and the new stuff put in. Um, so, you know, the, the complication of designing something that is both, uh, renewable if you like, and, um, and, uh, made up of, uh, of a combination of [00:25:00] parts is the challenge that we’ve got right now.

Um, so anyway, um, they, they’re the, the foundational challenge challenges for our data centers. However, you know, people aren’t doing that and they’re being successful. Um, so, um, so it’s just a, a different way of looking at how do we, how do we make this happen? Of course, uh, you know, some of the, the big players are actually going further upstream to buy the manufacturing, uh, uh, capacity of, of, uh, of the industry.

Um, you know, we hear about, uh, car manufacturers buying lithium mines the same. Yeah. They’re trying to control their own, uh, supply chain. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, the lithium race is gonna, is really interesting actually. Uh, the lithium mining battle. Uh, I think we’re gonna have somebody on who did a bit of a deep dive on that.

Who is, who is a major project, uh, James Wiseman, who worked on, who’s gone deep on the lithium rabbit hole, which we really interesting chat. Um, so, okay, here’s a [00:26:00] question I have for you on this. ’cause like you’re saying, data centers are very different and procurement’s very different now in the space.

You’ve been working on several of these data, these large data center buildouts, and I’m curious about the owners because. They’re techies, which is kind of a first in our industry in many ways, where, um, a lot of major projects in the past maybe were like government politicians or oil and gas executives, um, maybe a, a mining company executive, something like that.

And I think their minds work very different than say Mark Zuckerberg. He’s like, Hey, I’m gonna build 50 data centers. And when you report to him and you say, Hey, this is how we do it. He’s been building Facebook investing billions, building a software package using agile methodology, completely flipping the PM space on its head and is been working for him and other, like, large, uh, tech companies.

So I’m curious if you’ve seen that sort of [00:27:00] play out in the way that these projects, the expectations of these projects, like how you, uh, work with those owners. I guess maybe you could just talk a little bit about, um, sort of how those people are, how to interact with these new types of. In the major project space?

Geoff Ryan: Yeah. So, um, we’ve had a couple of, uh, tough conversations around that. So, um, one of the, um, uh, before data centers we were involved in, uh, uh, helping with construction of some automated warehouses. So, um, you use AM Amazon as an example, but there’s lots of others out there. Um, so, you know, they, they basically tried to build a total automation, um, uh, warehouse so that, uh, people aren’t picking parts, uh, that it’s totally automated.

So that is a, a high tech, uh, data centric, um, uh, environment. Um, the problem is those guys have no idea how to build that. So when we went to them and said, I know you guys are in the business of data, but you suck at [00:28:00] building. Because you, you can’t figure out how to manage your data to tell you what you can build and, and actually get it built.

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: They have a very low tolerance for being told that they suck at data. Right. So, but essentially, you know, that, um, they need to understand the construction model to understand that it, it, it needs data and it needs, but it, of course, the, the true, and we’re learning this with ai, the true understanding or the true value of data is understanding what to do with it or how to use it.

You can’t just have this huge swamp of data and say, okay, we’ve got it. Uh, you have to understand what, um, you know, how do we draw from that to understand, you know, what we can do, what we can’t do, what we should do, what we should be focused on. Um, so, uh, so, um, for the data center guys right now, you can imagine going to Google and telling them that they suck at data, right?

Yeah. But they do, ’cause they dunno what to do with it. They, they need to understand that Pepsi model, but also the execution of construction model. And that is [00:29:00] coming all the way back to project management as a profession. This is where project management is so important. ’cause project management is a, a unique profession and you, we need people that understand how to execute projects, um, in order to, uh, completely be on top of this whole model of, you know, where do I get data, how do I use it?

Um, how do we stay on top of that? So yes, it’s a, a unique conversation, but of course the smart guys, smart people know what they don’t know. And of course, you know, that, uh, you know, Google and Matter and Microsoft and, you know, those guys are really good at what they do. Uh, building their infrastructure is not part of that.

Orion Matthews: Yeah, I think, um, uh, so I, I have a lot of experience where I bring in people with sort of compsci degrees, teach them data analytics, and then we apply them to the project space. Whereas a lot of people that are doing reporting and stuff, they come from the project space, then they learn some of the [00:30:00] techniques of data science through the job, like on the job training.

And I’ve noticed that, um, you know, the way I do it, I like it ’cause I get, um, more, more of the technical talent. Um, there’s pros and cons to both, but one thing that’s interesting is when you take someone that’s really, really super smart, has gone through a COMPSCI program, gets data modeling, uh, it takes several years, it takes a lot of training to get them to get their heads around project controls, you know, uh, how the data works, the, you know, the, because there’s these, these complicated concepts.

And really, I think for me at least one of the clicking moments is like, you’re, you’re really taking. You’re comparing sets of data from one to the next oftentimes and looking for deviations between, which is a very different way of processing data. And, and it’s an area that they don’t really teach in Compsci school very much.

Like they’ll teach you about data structures, but there’s not like a class on like [00:31:00] differential reporting for, you know, advanced data structures or something, which is really where our, I think our art is, um, struggling. 

Geoff Ryan: Yes. Uh, uh, a hundred percent. Um, you know, we, we have, uh, great success when we have, um, our data scientists paired with our grizzly old construction guy.

He says, you know, the, the question is, and we pose this to project managers all the time, what do you need to know? And of course, you know, if they just start with, okay, I want to know how many of these I’ve got, or I wanna know, you know, what we need next month, or I know I want to know how many people we should have, or I wanna know how many work fronts are open, or any anything, you know, then the data scientists can go to go ahead and say, okay, I’ve probably got that data.

Let me, let me try that. Right. Uh, but yeah. Um, they are two unique skill sets. Um, and, uh, yeah, ideally you bring them together in order to build, uh, consumable data, we call it, you know? Yeah. Which is [00:32:00] actually how every app on your phone works. Right. You know, every app on your phone is, is, is, you know, made to, uh, be consumable.

But yes, it’s a challenge. 

Orion Matthews: Okay. So drawing us back to data centers, I think we walked a little bit away from that. And, um, just wanna get you back on there. Uh, let’s say I am gonna build a data center. I’ve got, I’m a, um, we’re in sort of pre FID we’re doing some evaluation work. Like, what would you say, uh, like if you’re listening to this podcast, you’re like, I’m gonna be one of those people that builds 5,000 data centers.

I’ve got one. Uh, what advice would you give this person? Maybe they just accepted the role of project director. Um, what is, what, what would Jeff say they should do? What’s their to-do list, perhaps? 

Geoff Ryan: Um, I guess it’s, first of all to understand the problem. So to understand the Pepsi model or why you would even, uh, consider that.

Um, uh, and then of course to find, you know, uh, the other. A couple of big problems that we’ve got in the industry [00:33:00] is that, you know, we haven’t done this before or we’ve, we’ve got a very shallow pool of people that have done it before and they haven’t done it very well. So, you know that basically let’s just start with a blank page and say, nobody knows how to do this.

Right. So, you know, that’s probably a good place for a director to start and say, okay, so what we need is we don’t need people to come up and say, Hey, I’ve done this before. You’re in good hands. We need people who are flexible to say, you know what, I, you know, I’m with you. I’m gonna figure it out. Alright, let’s, let’s see if we can get this together.

So, and you need an engineering company that will do that, um, but also procurement. That procurement, this is totally different for procurement, right? And that, you know, you don’t go to a procurement guy and say, um, go out there and see what you can find. Right? You, you give them a specific list of what you want and they, they put that out to a whole bunch of different vendors and they get answers and they pass on the answers.

Well, now we’re asking them to be inventive and, and and resourceful. Um, and of course, doing that globally, one of the other problems that we, uh, we have [00:34:00] is this whole imperial metric thing. So, you know that when you’re sourcing things from around the globe, well, you gotta gotta know that, uh, you know, that we, we use in imperial.

Uh, system here. So, you know, that, uh, understanding or getting procurement people that understand that. And then of course you’ve got the complication of shipping and, and manufacturing and, and things that are on top of that. But, so we need procurement folks that are flexible. Uh, we need engineering that is okay with the idea that they’re gonna work hand in hand with procurement till they can find a combination of, of equipment that they can use.

And, uh, of course, you know, then they’re going to, um, they’re probably gonna have a pile of problems going forward to solve as well that are unique and different. But ultimately it’s a flexible engineering, uh, uh, procurement that are flexible and that are, um, uh, innovative. And then of course, you, um, your construction, you need your construction team in early because they’re going to, [00:35:00] you know, if you, um, roll this out to a construction team and you say, okay, we want to put in, you know, put in a unit, we’re gonna have all this infrastructure around it, we’re going to run cable to it, and we’re gonna run air conditioning and cooling and things.

Um, how do you want to do that? Mm-hmm. And of course, um, ideally, uh, procurement and engineering are listening to that and, uh, they’re, they’re, we’re building a schedule based on, on, uh, the combination of what can you get your hands on, how long is it gonna take to design it? And of course, what sequence would we like to build it in?

So, uh, they are, that’s a different way of approaching a project for a project director. So hopefully, I I answered your question there. You know, that, um, I, I think, um, yeah, for a project director first, understand that nobody’s done this before. But, um, uh, we know that to be productive, we have to have installation work packages.

And the way to get there is to understand, you know, what we should get and what we, uh, how we should sequence that. Um, also one of the other, uh, big influences, [00:36:00] which is true today as well in, in normal projects is that the procurement is gonna drive the schedule. Now that’s the foundation is when can I have this stuff?

Okay? We’re gonna build the schedule around when that, when that gets here, uh, and then of course have a a, um, if you like, a fanatical focus on holding those dates. Flying over there. Have a look at the production facility, see your piece of equipment being built, you know, be confident that it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, um, it’s, uh, there 

Orion Matthews: on the shop floor.

Yeah, on the shop floor. Yeah. Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: You know, we, we, we’ve seen instances where it gets, uh, built and then it goes out to the highest bidder. Right. So, yeah. So you’ll put it at the back of the line again because you, uh, you weren’t in that race. So, you know, you, you, you need, um, uh, contracts that, that, um, of course, uh, support that, you know, the, the, the idea of, uh, lump sum, it’s probably, um, not gonna be present for a while.

Nobody knows how to do this. Nobody knows how much it’s [00:37:00] gonna cost or how long it’s gonna take. Um, so, uh. Trying to absolve risk by having a lump sum contract in that space is not gonna work. Uh, this is gonna be about flexibility and maybe the emergence of true project management. 

Orion Matthews: What do you see as true project management?

Tell me, tell me that. 

Geoff Ryan: Well, uh, understanding that it’s a unique discipline. Mm mm-hmm. This is not a function of engineering. Uh, this is a unique discipline. I actually think that, uh, in the future we will have, you know, potentially, uh, uh, a separate company, be the project managers, and we, we’ve got examples of this.

Yeah. Um, um, so they don’t really have a vested interest in EP or C. Their job is to conduct the, conduct, the 

Orion Matthews: orchestra. There’s a book I read a long time ago, I don’t remember the author. It was called Bare Knuckle Project Management. And the, the theory behind it. Was, um, that, that you and I, I [00:38:00] tell this to my PMs, but it’s like you, you’re the project advocate.

So I always say like there’s, you know, there’s the, there’s different stakeholders, but there has to be one person whose only interest is the project itself, and you are the project advocate. And so if that means like you’re, you know, you’re, you’re just sort of this independent third party that’s dispassionately giving people the news and advocating for the project, whatever that might mean.

Whether it’s, Hey, you’re, you’re the wrong owner for this project, you need to get off it, whatever. Just being able to say some of the things that you would never be able to say if your, um, yeah, if your incentives aren’t aligned properly. So I agree with you. I think that. The, the, the further you can get into that independence space, even if you aren’t technically independent, if you can find a way to get your reputation up as a person that’s sort of trustable, that can give that kind of news that, um, that can make a huge difference in, in your project.

Geoff Ryan: Yep. Yeah. So we do see a lot of [00:39:00] owners, uh, step into that space. Um, but you know, that, uh, the, the smart ones or the mature, uh, owners understand that, um, that’s not something that we can put your existing team on, that you need to go out and hire project management skills and, and, uh, build a project management department.

But, uh, I know you and I talked quickly about my house build before we got started here, so that’s a great example. You know, it’s my money. I’m gonna live in that house, you know? Yeah. I want it to be built the right way. I don’t want, you know, I want it to get in there as soon as I can. I don’t wanna spend too much money doing it, but, you know, and I’m fanatical about quality.

Well, you know, that, um, I don’t have a dog in any of those hunts, except that I want the whole thing to, to work for me. So, yes, it’s, um, a good example of, uh, uh, overall or if you like, third party, um, project management. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. Well, okay, so that’s sort of like the advice for a new project manager. Do you have any stories from some of your data [00:40:00] center work so far that might be some challenges that you might’ve overcome or anything that, you know, could help us prepare for the journey?

Um, 

Geoff Ryan: so one of the things that I talked, um, briefly about was the, um, uh, the, the shallow pool of knowledge, but there’s also the shallow pool of experience and skills. Um, and, uh, a simple example of that is electricians, you know, that. Most often when we think we have an electrician, we think we’ve got an electrician.

Well, in the data center world, that’s not true. Mm-hmm. Because there’s high voltage and there’s connecting, um, uh, light bulbs. Um, so they are two separate professions and the electricians will tell you that, um, in the world of data centers, we need a whole pile of high voltage people, um, because that’s where all of the work is.

And, um, when you put low voltage people working on high voltage, um, um, uh, processes, you have a lot of problems. Um, simple things that are, [00:41:00] um, uh, really, really dangerous if you don’t get them right. Um, so, uh, so anyway, that’s a, that’s a huge problem for us. I think we need to, uh, recognize that, that, um, we need a lot more training on, on safety, um, when it comes to hooking up high voltage.

Um, and, um, we need to have a, um, um, you know, just a, a general, um, awareness of that. So, uh, of course, uh, that comes from, uh, quality control. So one of the problems of course we have is time to market is the driver, you know, we are fanatical about getting to market. 

Orion Matthews: Mm-hmm. 

Geoff Ryan: We must make sure that that does not impinge upon quality and safety.

Um, you know, one of the foundations I was taught as a tradesperson was the quickest way to build anything is to build it once. So that’s a really great saying. It’s very simple. So even if you take your time and you get it right, that’s a quick way. Right? [00:42:00] And we need to, we need to understand that and, and apply it.

Um, yeah. Quality testing is, is ultra important. So the other thing, of course, in data centers is that they have a very low tolerance for problems, um, when they’re operational, um, because they, they need a, a 99.99% up uptime, right? So, uh, quality is all important. Redundancy, of course, as you’re, uh, uh, designing it to make sure that you have a bit of, um, a cushion there.

So there are a couple of the pro little problems is, is skillsets. Uh, but of course as we, we talked about, you know, the whole idea of being flexible, um, and sort of, uh, agile is a good word, you know, agile and being, being, um, uh, uh, adapting to, to today’s problems, uh, will have to be a skill set for engineering and procurement.

Orion Matthews: Where do you think it intersects with, like, say you’re building a data center for Google? Um, there’s also, like there you said there’s the [00:43:00] electricians, but then there’s also sort of the actual engineers that are building out the machines and they have specialty hardware as well. And does that fit into your work packages at this point?

Or you just like, we’re just gonna build the server racks and then you throw in whatever you want? We’re gonna make the facility and then we don’t care what happens inside of it. We’ll give you this much power. We’ll have the data wires and that’s it. And then the, the owners come in and do their own thing because those change out so much.

Like how does that work? 

Geoff Ryan: So a lot of that is true. Um, uh, the owner loves, loves, like to have that, uh, that finishing touch, if you like, on a data center. And, and we certainly see that for good reason. Um, but the, uh, even the infrastructure is tr changing, you know, that we look at, um, uh, uh, cooling. Cooling is a great big issue of course.

So, you know, we used to call with air, then we used to call with water, uh, now we call with submersion. Um, and uh, of course they are three different buildings, right? So you [00:44:00] can’t just switch one out for the other there. That is a different design. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: So I’m not sure where the next one’s going, but, um, you know, the, um, you know, even when we look at the, um, the design of the infrastructure, we need to be flexible to know that, um, we’ve already gone through that transition.

Um, and, uh, we’ll probably have other, um, uh, transitions that we go through there. So it needs to be flexible, it needs to be modularized. But yes. Um, having the owner, uh, do the final, um, uh, connection and, and configuration is, um, a really good idea because that’s where they do have expertise. 

Orion Matthews: Well, so let’s, okay, so I’ve been talking a lot about the owner and the folks actually building data centers, and I think what we’re saying here is, you know, there’s, there’s real constraints right now.

Over the next five years, 3000 data centers ish are gonna be built and procurement’s a major issue. You’ve got people issues. Um, you know, it’s, it’s gonna be a really fun space. I [00:45:00] think a lot of people that like challenges go into the project controls project management world. Um, so obviously we need a lot of people.

Now let’s flip this around and talk about like, I’m a university student. I’m listening to this podcast. Uh, I am excited about data centers, or I’m excited about, um, advanced work packages. How do I like, those two things are almost separate tracks, but how would you advise someone. Um, that’s a student that wants to go into this as a career.

Like where would they start? 

Geoff Ryan: So, uh, interestingly, there are piles of data center conferences going on right now. Uh, so my advice would be to take your resume and go to one, uh, or go to me, go to several, uh, because the industry is hungry for people, uh, that, that are just interested in going here. You don’t have to show up and say, I have done this before.

You’re just like, Hey, I’m flexible. 

Orion Matthews: Mm-hmm. I wanna 

Geoff Ryan: learn. And, uh, I think this is a great place to be. Um, and, uh, so that, that would be the start. [00:46:00] And, and we’ve seen that at conferences before and we, we actually have some people working with us now that we found that way. Right? They, they came to us, which is awesome.

Um, so that would be an easy way to, to get in there. But also, um, you know, the, uh, a lot of the stuff that we know and a lot of the skills that we already have, uh, near and dear to the solution, um, that we’re going to find here. And that is data management. You know that ultimately, um, and especially when you talk about project controls, you know that, um, there’s a great, um, project management expression that says, um, if you measure it, you manage it.

So, which is project controls 1 0 1. Um, so, um, you know, understanding how to measure it is, is one of our other challenges. You know, um, how, um, you know, what percentage complete are we when we finish procurement? You know, that might be the hardest part. So we, we could maybe count that as half done, you know, so, but understanding what that equation is and how [00:47:00] to gauge, uh, the level of effort required and the level of, uh, time, uh, uh, required is, is going to be an evolving skillset.

Um, um, but ultimately we do have to learn how to measure it. Um, so, um, in the product controls world, um, understanding how to measure, you know, procurement against engineering, and of course, you know, construction is actually physical construction, so that’s much easier to understand, uh, how much we’ve got done, how much there is left.

Um, but uh, we have to start measuring. And of course I would encourage, um, the industry to share that, you know, we always, we, we’ve always done this and kept those cards really close to our chest. ’cause we think that it’s competitive advantage. Well, advanced work packaging is an example of collaboration in the industry, and I promise you we all have the same problems.

Mm-hmm. And collectively we know the answers, but individually we don’t. Um, and, you know, one of the things that we have as. [00:48:00] Mankind is his ability to share and discuss and, and, and, and explore answers. So, uh, make use of that and, um, and, and go to these conferences, present your findings, talk to other people, um, and, and we’ll get better and better at this.

Um, and of course, you know, it’s not about having data that somebody else doesn’t have, that’s not gonna give you an advantage. Um, what’s going to give you an advantage is that you’re really good at it, at understanding what needs to get done and when it needs to get done. And, uh, that you can create a predictable outcome, uh, based on that agility, which doesn’t sound right.

Yeah, 

Orion Matthews: I mean, I like to liken it to, you know, how there’s like, uh, if you’re installing a program and the little bar goes like, right, it’s like installing, so like. The goal is if you are a user and you look at that and it goes, and then it goes backwards, you’re like, [00:49:00] what is going on? Right? It would be super frustrating.

And then also, and so that’s like, that’s where you get screwed up, where you’re measuring progress, and then progress goes in reverse. The people looking at that status bar at a high level, it’s really upsetting. So like, I think one, one goal when you’re measuring is to say, okay, are you measuring reality or not?

Because they’re looking at a progress bar for their install. And then the other thing that I think happens is, and you see this with programs, it goes, do, do, do, do, do. And it gets to 99%. And then you’re just sitting there and you’re like, uh, I thought, I thought this program was installed. And it’s just like, no, we’re 99% friends.

It’s good. And, but it’s not good. And in fact, that 99% how long it sits there, oftentimes, you know, there’s like a, there’s a threshold where you’re like, I can take a little bit, but if it’s gonna go for too long. We have a problem. And I think that can also happen with projects where it’s like you want a smooth progression where you start at zero and you end at a hundred.

And the [00:50:00] rate of, of that progress or bar is, is, is, is true to the reality of the actual project itself. So if you say it’s 99%, it should be 99% not 82. And so that, I think that’s part of the art. I’m, I’m sort of simplifying it I think in many, many ways, but to me that’s the art of like the data and the, the sort of measurement that you’re talking about is getting that accurate progress bar going.

Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: Uh, it’s a, a status that we call done but 

Orion Matthews: done. But I need to get you on to just give us all the phrases. I’m gonna make a little clip so you know, of all these different really awesome ways to think about engineering. Um. Well, so I guess like talking about careers and getting people involved, would you say there are certain degrees then that really matter?

I mean, w do you think the da you, you’re sort of talking about the data. I think in [00:51:00] school a lot of times people can go the sort of data science track, MIS track or they can go the sort of, um, engineering track. Do you, do you have strong preferences for that? Do you think? Either one is good? 

Geoff Ryan: So yeah, either one is good.

However, I’m going to, uh, defer to a, a, a presentation that I saw at a conference and I got up and I think he’s stat was like 25%. So he said like 25% of the jobs that we work now did not exist when we were at college. So you could not study for them. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: So you, your college, uh, or what you’re studying at college is going to be a foundation.

You know, the skillset we’re gonna need to, uh, to design and procure and, and, and, uh, execute these data centers that doesn’t exist yet. So, so give yourself an engineering or a data science foundation, but understand that, um, that gets you to the starting line [00:52:00] right After four years, you’re at the start line.

And, uh, now we’re gonna start to balloon, 

Orion Matthews: okay? So I know we’re running outta time. Let’s, uh, let’s take this back to, you said we were gonna get together in 2030 again and do an uptake. Can I get your forecast? ’cause you said a lot of things aren’t gonna exist. A lot of things are gonna change. AI has arrived.

That’s obviously gonna impact us in a major way. Do you have any predictions or thoughts about where the industry is heading? Hopefully advanced work packages continues, its meteoric rise, but could you give us some predictions perhaps or some, some thoughts? 

Geoff Ryan: So, um, I think that, um. You know, there’s a couple of things that change industries and that change, uh, there’s, there’s, uh, on quite often like a rupture done.

Uh, Uber was a rupture. 

Orion Matthews: Mm-hmm. 

Geoff Ryan: Yeah. You know, we were, we were stuck in the taxi world. We were happy with it. And then Uber just boom, uh, here’s a rupture. [00:53:00] And the world changed from that point forward. So, uh, we will have ruptures in our project management world, and I’m hoping that, uh, that, um, you know, a WP will be part of that.

It’ll be exactly what I said. We have to understand that, that predictable execution is a choice. And if you, uh, come in late or you overspend the budget, you had the choice to go there and you chose not to. Right. So we, we need to, we need to get to that, that, that state of maturity. Um, so, so I think that, um, uh, that’s important.

Is that we, we understand that. Um, but also, um, um, you know, who knows where AI is gonna take us? I, I, I know it’s, it’s hard to imagine except that, um, we have, uh, know, I think of, well, it’s actually not ai, it’s machine learning. But I mean, it’s, it’s collective wisdom. And when we learn to harness that collective wisdom, and you can [00:54:00] ask a, an AI program, okay, what’s the best way to build a data center?

And it spits out, you know, procurement, procurement, procurement, right? I can build, right? Or maybe we get a program that says, okay, I want this, this level of capacity. And you put that into a program, it searches the world for what is available and spits back your procurement, um, plan and says, okay, you can get this stuff and it’ll all fit together.

And, uh, and that’s available. Do you wanna order it? Um, you know. Maybe that’s where AI is gonna take us. And I think that, yeah, they, they’re both real, um, uh, scenarios where we should be able to get the whole world, the manufacturing capacity of the whole world in a, in an app, uh, that tells us, you know, uh, what we can get and where it’s busy and you know how much it is and what the level of quality is.

And, you know, we, we should be able to do that fairly soon. ’cause you can sort of, sort of do that with AI now. Anyway. So I think that’s, that’s where our, [00:55:00] um, business is going. Um, um, uh, but uh, you know, one of the other things that I think is going to be an accelerant to that is, uh, regulation. Um, so, you know, one of the things that I’m doing, um, sort of on the side here is working, working with, um, uh, governments, um, uh, around the world, um, asking them to, uh, lead the way here, you know, because essentially what we’re doing is we’re saying we need some, some, um.

Um, rules in place that allow us to be professional. Um, so, uh, and, uh, just simply, I think of the UK government and, and Singapore, uh, have both mandated, uh, BIM models. So if you work for them on any of their government projects, you have to have a building information model, which is basically just a 3D model that’s intelligent.

And so they’ve taken the first step there. I hear that actually the Russians are considering, uh, uh, a WP as a, a mandatory, um, best practice in their, in their execution of projects. You [00:56:00] know, that we need something like that as a trigger for the rest of the industry to say, okay, we’re gonna have to step up our game here.

You know, that change comes from desperation. You know, you’ve heard of the burning platform, uh, uh, standard, you know, we need a burning platform. Um, because if we don’t have one, we’ll just keep doing what we’re doing and it’ll be acceptable, you know, be acceptable to run late and over, over budget, and we’ll be fine with that.

We work for the last 20 years or 50 years, so we need, um, uh, we need, uh, um, some regulation that says, no, that’s no longer acceptable. Um, and that’s really the job of government is to help us, um, uh, um, encourage us to go places that we don’t really want to go. Um, so that’s, the industry has to go there, and I know a whole bunch of the owners have already gone there.

You look at the, uh, big, uh, oil and gas, um, and actually even, you know, some of their data center guys, uh, Microsoft and Google I know are talking about [00:57:00] mandating a WP. They don’t know what exactly what they just said, but that’s, they know that it’s a level of professionalism that they’re gonna need to, uh, to make this work.

Yeah. So anyway, yes, we, we need regulation as well. 

Orion Matthews: Um, that’s awesome. We, we have so much to talk about around those lines. ’cause I’m sort of coming from the data side of it. So I’ve been working on, I think one of the issues that I see in our industry, um, is that we don’t actually have a data, common data model, so that in the BIM space we do actually, we have a data standard, but in the project controls sort of project data space, and I would guess in the a WP space, we, we have the systems.

So like ISO 21, 5 0 8 is awesome and it takes you through all of like, this is what you do for cost, schedule, integration, blah, blah, blah. But when you actually say, okay, where’s the data model? It’s like, oh, well that’s in this program. That’s a P six. Oracle built [00:58:00] that. But Oracle built schedule and then they kind of half built maybe the cost piece and then you got SAP has their data model.

And so something I’m working on for really for 2026 is to try to create a gold standard open source data model where you can say, Hey, this is how we model this information and I don’t care what systems you have. Like this is the one that’s aligned to the ISO 21, 5 0 8. So, um, if you wanna do reporting, because it gets really complicated, really fast on the reporting and people get tripped up.

And so kind of going along with what you’re saying, it starts by having that ISO 21, 5 0 8, you have to have that. And then I think next level, so, so you are, as an industry leader, the industry leader in advanced work packages, you’re sort of setting those standards with governments. And then I think where I can come in a little bit or somebody like me has to say, alright, you’ve defined the core system.

Here is a standard common data model, and they did this with bim. Um, and they’ve done this, like in [00:59:00] healthcare, they have HL seven. Uh, the MLS was really successful by defining a common data standard for house listings. Um, so there’s all these industries that come out with these data standards, and then that creates that explosion in the industry of like, wow, we can talk to each other, we can, uh, the reports can be shared because it’s not all, you know, the sa same, uh, data 

or 

it’s not all different like data structures.

Um, anyway, so we’ll have to chat about that sometime. I’d love to love to connect into your a WP standards and practices. 

Geoff Ryan: Okay. So the, the other thing that that leads us to of course, is, um, once you have standards, you have to have measurement. So you have to be, it has to be, uh, it has to be measured. So you need to go and, you know, much like ISO does, you know, there’s a, there’s an auditing process on uh, whether you’re compliant with the standard or we need something like that, um, uh, on, uh, with our data standards, um, something we haven’t touched on, which is a huge [01:00:00] slippery slope.

Um, and I dunno if we’ve got the next, uh, three or four hours we can talk about this. Uh, but these, these data centers are gonna require power. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: Yes. Which is a whole other subject I think, is that, you know, how do we get that and how do we, you know, how do we not, uh, make the price of residential power crazy because of that?

Orion Matthews: Well, and didn’t they used to, there’s a saying, I’m gonna get this wrong, you probably know it, but it’s, uh, we’re moving from like watts per person to watts for bots. So when you look at like total demand for energy, it’s moving away from in the, in the past. And what I think is fascinating about that actually is that, um, you’re, uh, I was just talking to city manager in Boise and they’re building this massive data center and the, the power requirements for that are insane.

And you have like, it’s very different. I think if you’re a power provider and you have like 50,000 people you’re gonna be servicing. That’s like you’re, you have [01:01:00] all these little individual people and collectively they have a voice, but not individually. They don’t. Whereas these data centers, it’s like you have a $5 billion data center and you have like a very strong voice coming to the city or coming to a government and it’s sort of a single person or small group that are saying we need this much power.

So it’s a very different dynamic that this, that these cities and states are operating against where you have, um, before it was more of a collectivist power sort of dynamic. And now it’s turning into, I think. Maybe collect collectivist dynamic versus like large organizations that are asking for massive power draws from the grid and, and otherwise, um, I don’t know how that’s gonna shake out, do you?

No, 

Geoff Ryan: that’s a, that’s a conversation for a different day. 

Orion Matthews: Very good. Well, let’s switch over then and just get a little bit, um, I’d love to touch a little bit on your business, ’cause I know that, uh, and, and hear about your book. So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about, about, uh, how people could get [01:02:00] access to your book and also like, tell us about your business that you started that I think sort of was informed by that initial, um, that initial like a WP uh, spark that you got.

Geoff Ryan: Yeah, it was, it was a gap. Uh, it was a gap that, that had to be filled. You know, that if we wanted people to actually build packages and give them to foreman, then we had to provide support to, to do that. So that was the initial spark. And that’s, that’s still today’s. Uh, what I did do is I, uh, essentially after we, uh, had done that in, um, Canada for a while, I wrote a book and said, okay, this is how we, this is what we do.

This is how we do it. Um, with the, um, intent that, um, people didn’t have to hire us to figure this out. They could just read the book. And, and a lot of people did that. They just said, all right, yeah. Hey, we’re gonna do work packages. The, you know, it’s pretty simple. Here’s the rules. There we go. Um, now, um, that worked while we were doing, uh, workplace planning.

Then [01:03:00] several years later when it expanded into advanced work packaging, I had to rewrite that, uh, or publisher the next version, which was the one that is out there now. So anyway, so the first book was called Schedule for Sale. And I, I, I wrote that because I wanted people to, uh, think about the title. I didn’t.

I, you know, I’m, uh, and you’ll see this in my writing, I, I quite often mix up the, the, the way that I write so that it wakes up the reader. And that’s what I really wanted to do with that title. What do you mean schedule for sale? How can you buy a schedule? Yeah. Well, you can buy a schedule, right? But you can’t buy it with money.

You’ve gotta buy it with effort and time and, and process. Right. You can get schedule, right. So, so anyway, so the second book is called Even More Schedule for Sale, uh, which is basically the process of synchronizing, engineering, procurement, and construction. Um, and I must have done something right. Um, I know people read the book and it resonates with them.

[01:04:00] And, um, most people that have been in the project industry, any length of time, they read the book and they’re like, yeah, I didn’t learn anything. But I have a holistic understanding of how things fit with each other. Which is really what we’re trying to achieve. Um, uh, the other challenge I might throw out there to see if this, uh, is, uh, real or not, is people said that after they’ve met me on, perhaps after they’ve, they’ve heard me talk, uh, that they can hear me when they’re reading the book.

So maybe you need an audio book edition. Then. Uh, we have an audio book. Uh, it’s also available in four other languages. Um, so, and that was, uh, basically because each of those other markets came to us. So the Russians came to us and said, Hey, um, you know, we have workers who don’t speak English and we need to communicate with them.

Um, it was actually a, um, a professor at the, uh, uh, Polytechnic in, uh, St. Petersburg that came to me and said, Hey, I, I want to, uh, give this book to my class [01:05:00] and, and, uh, get them to translate it. And I said like, sure. So that’s what he did for like a semester. They basically just focused on the book and wow.

They translated it a little bit at a time, argued about the translation, make sure that everybody’s on page. And of course, at the end of it, everybody knew exactly what the, the book was talking about, and we ended up with a translation. Uh, and that’s important. You don’t just Google translate, um, this type of concept.

You have to understand it. So we did the same thing in, uh, Mandarin. Um, uh, Spanish and Portuguese, uh, Portuguese and Spanish, of course for the South American market, um, uh, which is booming with, um, uh, with, uh, application of a WB. Those guys are really keen to make this work. 

Orion Matthews: That’s really cool. Yeah, I mean, I think your book is sort of the gold standard for a WP in the industry, I believe.

Yeah, 

Geoff Ryan: we’re, we’re certainly trying to make it that way. It’s supposed to be an instructional book, uh, that sort of, uh, helps you, uh, conceptualize, um, um, what the [01:06:00] process. One of the other interesting tools we’re working on right now, um, uh, that maybe we can talk about in the future is, um, uh, something we’re calling a WP chat.

And so it’s basically just a chat bot, uh, based on published a WP data. So we’ve taken very cool all of the world’s, published a WP data, put it into a chat bot and said, okay, now we’re gonna ask questions, and it’s gonna draw from just that published data. Uh, so of course that allows, you know, organizations like COA or um, or CAI to say, well, you know, somebody calls them and says, well, explain this a WP thing to me.

They’ll be able to say, no, just go to chat a WP and a WP chat and, and ask that the questions. Um, but of course, we’re trying to facilitate an understanding or a level of understanding with what a WP is and what to do. And so we’re hoping that it will, uh, became, uh, become a resource, uh, for people where they can just go there and ask questions and, [01:07:00] and get good quality answers.

Orion Matthews: Is that available now or will it become available? Okay. How, how, how can I sign up to be, uh, on a mailing list for that? 

Geoff Ryan: Um, well, um, it, it’s a concept at the moment where we’re trying it out and it seems to work really good. Um, um, watch this space, you know, that’s, uh, I would say, um, so we haven’t even figured out if we can do it yet.

So first thing we have to do is talk to the, the data owners to say, Hey, is it okay if we make your data available to everybody? Um, so that’s the, the first step. 

Orion Matthews: And then maybe just talk a little bit about your company as we wrap up. I’m, I’m sure people are super interested about, um, about you, how they might be able to connect with you, and also just the story of, of what you do.

Um, maybe if it’s someone in government or, um, somebody looking to build a data center that wants to do it. Like how do they work with you or do you even work with people anymore? Are you mostly just on the speaker tour these days? 

Geoff Ryan: No, we, uh, our [01:08:00] company is, uh, alive and thriving and, uh, and, and, uh, growing.

Um, we sort of average about 30, uh, project managers at any one time that work for us that, uh, uh, set essentially embedded in projects around the world. Um, and they go there to, um, to coach the project on how to apply a WP um, three specific areas that we, um, uh, we target. Um, so first of all, engineering and procurement.

Somebody needs to, uh, basically coach that whole, those whole teams on, okay, this is how you do this. Uh, we have, uh, information management, which is digital data. Okay? This is how we produce digital data. This is how we standardize it, this is how we, uh, host it. This is what we do with it. Uh, and then of course, work packaging.

So somebody to work with the construction group to say, okay, let, let’s build some I wps, right? Let’s figure out what constraint management actually looks like, and then somebody to manage that, that whole environment. So basically we’re like the coaching team. Um, uh, we are, [01:09:00] uh, embedded with projects. So we’re not consultants.

We’re, we’re project managers. Um, and essentially we just, you know, we are, we’re working with a whole range of companies, uh, in that space that want to get good at doing a WP themselves. And, uh, they hire us for a project or two. Uh, their people learn how to do this, and then, uh, they use us to come back and just do some, some audits on their process.

Uh, so that’s a business model. 

Orion Matthews: Are you typically for the life of the project? Um, or do you come in just for a little bit? Like what’s your ideal? So typically for the life 

Geoff Ryan: of the project, uh, okay, that makes sense. Yeah. The, the, the, the structure of the whole process needs to be, um, if you like, uh, tweaked from, from start to finish.

Um, and, and, and then, uh, as I said later on, after our organization, um, uh, matures down the a WP space, then we might come in for just, um, uh, portions of the project. 

Orion Matthews: Okay. Got [01:10:00] it. And then just tying it back to that 10%, you know, sounds like really if you’re, whatever you have a $150 million budget for construction.

You know, you bring in a couple folks on your side and that really de-risks the project possibly boosts productivity quite a bit, um, depending on when you bring them in and how, um, could have a pretty, pretty positive impact to the project. That’s pretty cool. 

Geoff Ryan: So the, the biggest expense when you apply a WP is the work face planners.

We need planners to build a WP, so that’s the biggest portion of the cost. You know, the, uh, the, the, uh, our cost is, is, uh, insignificant compared to that. But either the way, um, um, in our, our model to try to help answer that, we said, all right, let’s take a billion dollar project and do the math. So, uh, it costs you about $10 million to apply a WP on a billion dollar project.

Now, if you realize that full 10%, you can reduce the cost of that project by a hundred [01:11:00] million. 

Orion Matthews: Wow. 

Geoff Ryan: So that’s a thousand percent return. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: Right. So even if you don’t do a very good job of it, and you only get a 500% return, and the project finishes on time, you know, there’s, there’s enormous benefit. So it’s not even close, uh, that it’s a, it’s a terrific investment, um, to just go down this path.

Even if you don’t get it right, if you, if you stumble through the first project and you get it on the second project. And of course the, the other, um, consideration is, you know, if we are in a continuous improvement model, if you’re not doing a WP, what are you doing? 

Orion Matthews: Yeah, yeah. It’s true. Gonna be doing something.

Yeah. 

Geoff Ryan: Yes. 

Orion Matthews: What is the next step? 

Geoff Ryan: Yeah. 

Orion Matthews: Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on sharing all this. So, if somebody wants to connect with you, are you on LinkedIn? Um, you know, how would you advise they, they reach out? 

Geoff Ryan: Uh, so we have a website, of course, insight, a WP. Um, [01:12:00] we actually have, uh, a bunch of, uh, YouTube videos up that, uh, we’ve posted.

Um, so if you search search, advance work packaging, um, if you wanted to see those numbers that I talked about, uh, we put a video up there called a WP by the numbers, uh, which, which walks through all of those, uh, the project results. Uh, we’ve got a great, uh, video up there that you might wanna look at as a future state.

Something that we’re doing on, on some projects now, but not too many, is called, uh, augmented Reality in Construction. And the end game of this is that once you have all that data and you have all these plans, 

Orion Matthews: yeah, you can 

Geoff Ryan: then use that to use augmented reality. And we, you know, we we’re actually doing that on, on projects where the foreman has an iPad instead of a hard copy package and he can see what he’s supposed to build, which is awesome state.

Orion Matthews: That’s huge. That’s awesome. What was the name of the YouTube for that? It’s just augmented Reality 

Geoff Ryan: in Construction. 

Orion Matthews: In Construction. Okay. And we’ll put all that in the [01:13:00] description below so people can link into those things. Thanks so much, Jeff, for coming on. This was, this was a fantastic conversation and uh, we’re always trying to look for ways to, you know, we’re talking, the major project podcast is projects that are billion dollars and up.

And I think one of the, one of our goals is, is sort of inform the community, advance our art, but also we’re looking for those like billion dollar lessons. Uh, and I feel like a WP and that 10% is what really sticks with me. It’s like, here’s how you can save a hundred million dollars. And I hope, I hope the listeners are, are, are latching onto that because I think it’s pretty, it’s pretty exciting when you, when you find an area that you can potentially level up in our, our, so thanks for doing that.

Geoff Ryan: You’re most welcome. Um, so, um, I will tell your listeners that the videos are our gift to them. Uh, because if they decide that they wanna go down this path, they’re gonna have to explain themselves to somebody else, right? So the videos are that tool, uh, so the a WP by the numbers is good to have a look at, but [01:14:00] ultimately it should be a tool in your back pocket.

Because basically you need to convince somebody else to try this. Here’s the evidence. 

Orion Matthews: Awesome. Alright Jeff, well thanks so much for joining and I look forward to following up at at at a minimum in 2030, but hopefully more ’cause we have so many things to talk about. 

Geoff Ryan: The story might change next year. I’ll have to.

Orion Matthews: So 

Host: true. All 

Orion Matthews: right, well thanks 

Host: for coming on. Take care. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Major Project podcast. Be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at the major project podcast.com. Until next time, keep building big.